Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

The Inhumanity of the World Petroleum Trade

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Regardless, I do wonder where ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab and Al-Qaeda et al. get their money from…

One thing that scares me at the moment is that ISIS just became the best-funded terrorist organization in the world, courtesy of looting the Mosul treasury.

- - - Updated - - -

Where does the power come for the Tesla? 65% coal, 15% nuc, 15% natural gas or fuel oil. Only a smidgeon from "clean" energy.

This is not a good place to cite incorrect "facts". Less than 50% of all power in the US in now from coal, and most Teslas still plug in on the west coast somewhere.
 
Point taken but we shouldn't be blind to the fact that the use of fossil fuels have given our species a high standard of living and very comfortable lifestyle (or, at least the fortunate of our species, which is all of us here). There's nothing wrong with trying to raise our standards of living for our ourselves and our children -- and I do realize the irony in that statement but that is how we got to this place in time and it's not necessarily a bad thing to try to conquer nature when not too long ago we were part of the food chain rather than at the top of it, and huddled around fires to keep warm.

Also, the problems in the middle east date back centuries, well before oil extraction, and it's somewhat simplistic to blame the current events on oil. Our species is tribal in nature and warfare over land, power, belief systems, etc. have existed from our outset and won't be gone even if we cease to use one drop of oil.

But that's not to say we shouldn't dramatically reduce our reliance on oil. Rather, it's an attempt to give some historical perspective on the sad scenes we are seeing coming out of Iraq.

At what price have we achieved this "higher" standard of living?

Given the course we're on, our higher standard of living will result in a dead planet in 100 years, and we humans will have eliminated our own species along with most if not all other life forms. Ernst Mayr, a leading evolutionary biologist of the 20th century argued that the adaptive value of what is called ‘higher intelligence’ is very low. Beetles and bacteria are much more adaptive than humans. We will find out if it is better to be smart than stupid. We may be a biological error, using the 100,000 years which Mayr gives [as] the life expectancy of a species to destroy ourselves and many other life forms on the planet.

I wouldn't blame it all on fossil fuels but they are the major culprit.
 
It amazes how so many otherwise clever people conclude that human nature is to fight wars, be "barbaric", not plan for the future generations etc. etc. If this was the core of human nature then how do we have advanced societies, law, states, science, less and less poverty in the world, less and less wars and violence in the world???

I'd argue that the core of human nature is love, cooperation and brotherhood. Have some faith people, don't be so gloomy. We'll get there as a species, but the road is not straight. We've solved all major problems we've been faced with as a species historically.
 
At what price have we achieved this "higher" standard of living?

Given the course we're on, our higher standard of living will result in a dead planet in 100 years, and we humans will have eliminated our own species along with most if not all other life forms. Ernst Mayr, a leading evolutionary biologist of the 20th century argued that the adaptive value of what is called ‘higher intelligence’ is very low. Beetles and bacteria are much more adaptive than humans. We will find out if it is better to be smart than stupid. We may be a biological error, using the 100,000 years which Mayr gives [as] the life expectancy of a species to destroy ourselves and many other life forms on the planet.

I wouldn't blame it all on fossil fuels but they are the major culprit.

Agree. To this concern I invite all TMC Members to view this video. Please share it with all your friends and relatives.

Last Hours - YouTube
 
I'd argue that the core of human nature is love, cooperation and brotherhood. Have some faith people, don't be so gloomy. We'll get there as a species, but the road is not straight. We've solved all major problems we've been faced with as a species historically.

That's certainly a worthy goal, but Easter Island indicates otherwise. All my conservative co-workers have told me that if it's thirty years in the future, they don't care. And these are university graduates with children, not the Joe-sixpack that we usually equate with this attitude. I really don't get it.
 
That's certainly a worthy goal, but Easter Island indicates otherwise. All my conservative co-workers have told me that if it's thirty years in the future, they don't care. And these are university graduates with children, not the Joe-sixpack that we usually equate with this attitude. I really don't get it.

Absolutely... it's one thing to see the glass as "half full"; completely different to ignore the crack and just hope it goes away. Ignoring the ignorance and apathy that has infected most people isn't going to help solve the problem.
 
I have been amazed that my Tesla has helped to change many peoples attitudes. The conservatives who deny Anthropomorphic Global Warming all admire the Tesla. They will not buy yet as they must see more charging stations and range, but they are being won over to a more sustainable future. I am with Johan. The world is measurably better every ten years in nearly every category measured in spite of Fox News and CNN reports to the contrary.

Fossil fuels have allowed humans to develop a technological civilization. Yes we have had wars over oil but the slavery/servitude which it replaced was measurably worse. Unfortunately the externalities of fossil fuels are catching up with us. The Tesla S shows us that the future need not be living like a ("cricket"?) in a cave. We can harness the sun, the wind and safer nuclear fuels. We can save oil and natural gas to make plastics for my great(10) grandchildren.

Evangelize in your own little corner. Luckily Elon is helping all of our great grandchildren have a better life.

(Yes I am a fanboy.)
 
It amazes how so many otherwise clever people conclude that human nature is to fight wars, be "barbaric", not plan for the future generations etc. etc. If this was the core of human nature then how do we have advanced societies, law, states, science, less and less poverty in the world, less and less wars and violence in the world???

There is not one known human civilization that has not engaged in war. If there's any other way of determining human nature, I don't know what it is.

If we didn't have advances in societies, laws, less poverty, etc. then we'd really be an even more brutal species than we are now. The fact of the matter is that poverty is purely political in nature and results solely from the greed of our species, and for no other reason at all. One billion humans go to bed hungry. We have used our advances in technology and science to build highly advanced war machines, not to feed the entire population, or to provide everyone with schools and hospitals. That is our species.

So if you take comfort in a species that allows its fellow species to starve to death (which we do en masse) then we will have to agree to disagree on the core nature of humans.
 
Last edited:
This thread is going in sixteen separate directions within four or five planar surfaces, which is fine, but...

I re-emphasize my initial points, and add: mankind cannot and should not be expected all to live either as "Amish" (a poor choice but I understand the poster's intent) or, more extremely, as upper Amazon Kree-Akarore. No, it is not possible nor do I believe it should be that we expunge from our collective global society all forms of hydrocarbon consumption.

We can look at the situation along the following broad lines, though. In general, our and other societies use sequestered hydrocarbons, aka fossil fuels, for the following purposes: (1) electrical production, (2) space heating and (3) locomotive force. Now, the extremist stance is to eliminate this consumption entirely. Wiser men than most of us, though, have said Choose your battles carefully. And Messrs Musk & Co. have, I think we collectively agree, successfully demonstrated that this third category now can be eliminated. Today - for personal transportation and most likely in short order, for probably all over-the-road locomotion.

That, I aver, is a magnificent step forward. I am especially sensitive to the task of diminishing hydrocarbon use in space heating: even through now, mid-June in the northern hemisphere, we are keeping two wood stoves burning 24 hours a day (this is an outlier year, thank goodness). At least we're using something other than fossil fuels, but my point is that the energy density of fuel oil and the excellent transportation characteristics of natural gas are such that I don't believe they can't responsibly remain a part of the human condition for some time to come.

Lastly, we have electrical generation. What is important to stress here is not that a lot of this state's, that province's, yonder country's electricity does or does not come from fossil fuels. Rather, it is that a point source of electricity, such as a large-scale modern generating station, can produce energy vastly more efficiently - with far fewer pollutants - than can an equivalent number of internal combustion engine automobiles. And THAT brings us back to EVs and the new paradigm of transportation.

This now beings us back to my first post's anguish over funding, fueling and fomenting terror in many parts of the world, specifically but absolutely not solely in the Middle East. And I say this:

To the extent that the United States can extinguish its appetite for petroleum as a means of locomotive force is the extent to which this nation can unhitch itself from the world oil trade. I am a bit too lazy tonight (and can use the always handy but absolutely true excuse of hyper-slow internet connection) to put forth the hard data, but this country's consumption of crude oil - minus the amount used for transportation - is very close to equal to that of our own domestic production. So I argue thus: if we - still the largest coherent economic presence on the planet - can end our role in world oil trade, then we can concomitantly end the fungibility of that product. And to the extent that the US can do it, so the other nations of the world can follow. And that is what can break the connection between bullets and barrels.

Once one realizes that, other possibilities open up. I was thinking of the need each gigafactory will have for some 6,500 employees. I also am acutely aware of the situation amongst many, many US (mostly male) high school graduates of this age. It is not an electrical engineering degree from Stanford that is their short-term future: it is a term in the US armed forces. How much more attractive, how much more long-enduring, how much more productive, how much more patriotic it would be to work in that kind of job in the private sectore towards something that incontrovertibly is positive for [the United States] (please fill in your own country here), than for these youth to spend their most dynamic years in another futile effort to...accomplish....what...in some part of the Middle East where we aren't, never have been, and never will be wanted?
 
Go to the EPA web site. Last time I did this, I searched for "biological greenhouse gas emitters". Went from there. Also, searched "organism emission of methane" or something like that. Digging deep you will find statements around "human production".

I also searched "human exemption" relating to greenhouse gases. Found the "humans are currently exempt from regulation".

There was a FAQ or actual questions asked about human production of CO2 and methane.

In the end, "AlL emitters of CO2" and methane are under the direct regulation of te EPA. This includes all animals and humans.

EPA is concerned about RELEASING carbon into the biosphere... not moving it around. Unless you're drinking gasoline or eating coal you're carbon neutral.
 
Edit: Reposting since my post ‘got carried away’. :wink: Have deleted the ‘copy’ that ended up in the Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion thread…



Wikipedia isn’t always a reliable source of information /…
Just noting that if you don't like Wikipedia in this case, then you see the list(s) of oil producers at CIA-The-World-Factbook and/or International Energy Agency - Key Statistics
My reservation was aimed at my own use of Wikipedia in that particular post. Apologies for not making that more clear.

And: I’m aware of your private sector business credentials... So I personally don’t doubt anything you post on this topic.
 
I have been amazed that my Tesla has helped to change many peoples attitudes. The conservatives who deny Anthropomorphic Global Warming all admire the Tesla. They will not buy yet as they must see more charging stations and range, but they are being won over to a more sustainable future. I am with Johan. The world is measurably better every ten years in nearly every category measured in spite of Fox News and CNN reports to the contrary.

Fossil fuels have allowed humans to develop a technological civilization. Yes we have had wars over oil but the slavery/servitude which it replaced was measurably worse. Unfortunately the externalities of fossil fuels are catching up with us. The Tesla S shows us that the future need not be living like a ("cricket"?) in a cave. We can harness the sun, the wind and safer nuclear fuels. We can save oil and natural gas to make plastics for my great(10) grandchildren.

Evangelize in your own little corner. Luckily Elon is helping all of our great grandchildren have a better life.

(Yes I am a fanboy.)

+1 ^^^
 
Originally Posted by nwdiver
EPA is concerned about RELEASING carbon into the biosphere... not moving it around. Unless you're drinking gasoline or eating coal you're carbon neutral.



According to EPA wonks neither cows not us are carbon neutral.

Not discriminating between (1) utilizing active carbon, and (2) releasing sequestered carbon, is obfuscation at best, tergiversation most likely, and deceptive always. Cycling "active" carbon is what the planet's biosystem does, unless you are Desulfovibrio desulfuricans or its ilk, in which case you have my apologies. And commiseration.
 
Where does the power come for the Tesla? 65% coal, 15% nuc, 15% natural gas or fuel oil. Only a smidgeon from "clean" energy.

And what substantiates this claim? Is this anything that supports this besides your word?

Here is what I got from a 5 second google search, courtesy of the EIA:

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
In 2013, the United States generated about 4,058 billion kilowatthours of electricity. About 67% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuel (coal, natural gas, and petroleum), with 39% attributed from coal.
In 2013, energy sources and percent share of total electricity generation were

  • Coal 39%
  • Natural Gas 27%
  • Nuclear 19%
  • Hydropower 7%
  • Other Renewable 6%
    • Biomass 1.48%
    • Geothermal 0.41%
    • Solar 0.23%
    • Wind 4.13%
  • Petroleum 1%
  • Other Gases < 1%

Again, where do you get 65% coal from? Ok, so let's look at California, the state with the greatest number of Tesla ownership:

California's Major Sources of Energy

Electricity (2010)
In-State Generation

Source
Natural Gas53.4%
Nuclear15.7%
Large Hydro14.6%
Coal1.7%
Renewable14.6%

That's in 2010, California is probably using even less coal now. I don't think a single coal plant exists in California right now.

Now let's look at the energy it takes to produce such a luxury vehicle. Much exploited tare earth minerals

Except there are NO rare earth metals used in a Tesla. A blatant, easily refutable lie.

hazardous elements and final materials..

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Which take countless amounts of power and "pollution" generated through the supply line and production.

Unsubstantiated.

Thousand year toxic materials compose a large percentage of the car.

Thousand year toxic material materials, eh? Why not hundred-year, or two thousand year? Again, WHAT are you talking about?

Waste by products from the materials in the car are massive.

Unsubstantiated. x2

And if one did, would be generating such energy using toxic materials that make up such clean energy devices. Let alone all the toxic elements, exploited minerals mined to produce such "clean" power for those who can afford the Tesla.

I would really like to hear about this "toxic materials" you speak of.

The point is... Let's not get on a high horse about things unless you are willing to live the life yourself as say a Old order Amish family.

The point is... become scientifically literate before posting.

I suggest getting out of the globalists brainwashing. There is a amazing world and history to learn. Not the fascist handlers who have you engrained in something that is false.

Oh wow, we're pulling the fascist card! A true sign of a budding intellectual!

According to EPA wonks neither cows not us are carbon neutral.

Just stop.

Does breathing contribute to CO2 buildup in the atmosphere?
 
Not discriminating between (1) utilizing active carbon, and (2) releasing sequestered carbon, is obfuscation at best, tergiversation most likely, and deceptive always. Cycling "active" carbon is what the planet's biosystem does, unless you are Desulfovibrio desulfuricans or its ilk, in which case you have my apologies. And commiseration.

Not sure I understood your post but if you're implying that burning coal or petroleum is somehow equivalent to burning non-fossil carbon-fuels you're wrong. Fossil fuel deposits have been where they are for tens millions of years and will remain there for millions more unless they are disturbed. Using the CO2 in the air to grow crops then eating those crops and re-releasing the CO2 through metabolism is carbon neutral. Burning coal to generate power is not.