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jhm
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I don't follow miners closely enough to be able recommend any of them.
From the ER transcript a small mention of resource concerns, seems a bit garbled:
Edited Transcript of TSLA earnings conference call or presentation 1-Nov-17 9:30pm GMT
Edited Transcript of TSLA earnings conference call or presentation 1-Nov-17 9:30pm GMT
phigment
Member
Nice to see Pure Energy (PEMIF in US and PE.V in Canada) starting to do something leading to production of local LiOH. Was nice to see them getting some media attention recently:
Analyst Speaks On Investing In Small Caps
There have been a small number of references to Boron, most notably after Mr Musk visited Turkey; these primarily are in reference to the potential use of borates in LiS battery technology, one that apparently would circumvent the use of Ni & Co in same.
Turkey, as has been mentioned, leads the world in B reserves; it also is the world's largest producer. USA is second, and with the exception of one small player, US production means, as it has since the 1880s, US Borax, whose deposits are in and around Death Valley. The global mining giant Rio Tinto owns 100% of US Borax; it produces about 2.5 mm tons/yr (RTZ does not break out these data and I've had to come about it circumlocutorily). All Turkey's producers contribute about 4.2 mm tpy - just under half the world's supply; I have not the breakdown of how many companies this is, nor who dominates.
The above thumbnails current supply. Reserves, in US, in Turkey, and elsewhere, are immense by any standard.
So, with so much production coming out of a location so close to the Gigafactory, why might Tesla be searching for other suppliers (this is supposition: we do not having any specific evidence they are so doing)?
Answers are as ever: the strategic security of multiple sourcing; the financial security of not being dependent on a single supplier; the market advantage of the possibility of a European - or Mideast/Indian SubC - gigafactory being served by a more local source.
Turkey, as has been mentioned, leads the world in B reserves; it also is the world's largest producer. USA is second, and with the exception of one small player, US production means, as it has since the 1880s, US Borax, whose deposits are in and around Death Valley. The global mining giant Rio Tinto owns 100% of US Borax; it produces about 2.5 mm tons/yr (RTZ does not break out these data and I've had to come about it circumlocutorily). All Turkey's producers contribute about 4.2 mm tpy - just under half the world's supply; I have not the breakdown of how many companies this is, nor who dominates.
The above thumbnails current supply. Reserves, in US, in Turkey, and elsewhere, are immense by any standard.
So, with so much production coming out of a location so close to the Gigafactory, why might Tesla be searching for other suppliers (this is supposition: we do not having any specific evidence they are so doing)?
Answers are as ever: the strategic security of multiple sourcing; the financial security of not being dependent on a single supplier; the market advantage of the possibility of a European - or Mideast/Indian SubC - gigafactory being served by a more local source.
Rather than securing supplies from Turkey, Tesla may be thinking about expanding sales into Turkey. They expand their reach by at least a few countries a year.
I've been to the boron mine in Boron, CA. It is a massive operation. Nothing grows for many miles around the mine, boron is very toxic to plant life.
I picked up some slag from the slag pile, it was essentially a lump of glass that was mostly boron and had the density of styrofoam. Later in college when I was taking Geology they had an extra credit lab assignment where we were to bring in some rocks we found and ID them in the lab. I brought in the chunk of slag and had the TA completely baffled. When she figured out I had brought in a bunch of rocks from my rock collection and knew more about them that she did, she kicked me out of the lab and gave me a perfect score on the assignment. I couldn't help it my sister was a working Geologist.
I've been to the boron mine in Boron, CA. It is a massive operation. Nothing grows for many miles around the mine, boron is very toxic to plant life.
I picked up some slag from the slag pile, it was essentially a lump of glass that was mostly boron and had the density of styrofoam. Later in college when I was taking Geology they had an extra credit lab assignment where we were to bring in some rocks we found and ID them in the lab. I brought in the chunk of slag and had the TA completely baffled. When she figured out I had brought in a bunch of rocks from my rock collection and knew more about them that she did, she kicked me out of the lab and gave me a perfect score on the assignment. I couldn't help it my sister was a working Geologist.
Nice. On the other hand, nothing grows for many miles around just about every large mine I've ever visited.
Gather 'round - a Thanksgiving story for allz youz.
Dang! I've always wished it had been I who came up with this one's punch line..... :-(
So we're on a field trip to the Cu-Pb-Zn-Ag massive sulfide deposits of northeastern Ontario / northwestern Quebec, some time back in the mid-Pliocene.
Some quite a few miles away from, I believe, the massive Noranda zinc smelter, where everything, everywhere looks like slag - the sulfur burned out of the ores having created fine acid rain over the many decades that denuded all one could see - there obviously had been an attempt: concerted? desultory? Who knows - ineffective, anyway - toward trying to get something to grow.
And Noranda or whoever owned it at the time had proudly put up a sign so heralding. In the midst of this endless barren lunarscape, it read:
Une autre projet de vegetation
"Aha!" my colleague exclaimed, showing off his advanced translation skills. "Another devegetation project!"
Gather 'round - a Thanksgiving story for allz youz.
Dang! I've always wished it had been I who came up with this one's punch line..... :-(
So we're on a field trip to the Cu-Pb-Zn-Ag massive sulfide deposits of northeastern Ontario / northwestern Quebec, some time back in the mid-Pliocene.
Some quite a few miles away from, I believe, the massive Noranda zinc smelter, where everything, everywhere looks like slag - the sulfur burned out of the ores having created fine acid rain over the many decades that denuded all one could see - there obviously had been an attempt: concerted? desultory? Who knows - ineffective, anyway - toward trying to get something to grow.
And Noranda or whoever owned it at the time had proudly put up a sign so heralding. In the midst of this endless barren lunarscape, it read:
Une autre projet de vegetation
"Aha!" my colleague exclaimed, showing off his advanced translation skills. "Another devegetation project!"
Pretty bleak outlook on Cobalt from someone other than Petersen. Petersen of course used this in his most recent article to support his premise.
Current world-wide demand for cobalt is about 94 K tons a year. About 48 K goes into li-ion batteries. The Congo has 3.4 million tons, but there are also 1 million tons in Australia, 500 K tons in Cuba, and 270 K tons in Canada.
That should be enough until battery chemistry changes to use other materials.
That should be enough until battery chemistry changes to use other materials.
Gerardf
Active Member
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Here's some discussion of lithium and cobalt projects in Australia:
https://www.economist.com/news/busi...-thanks-strong-demand-chinas-electric-vehicle
https://www.economist.com/news/busi...-thanks-strong-demand-chinas-electric-vehicle
Australia is the new frontier for battery minerals
China’s electric-vehicle industry is piling in, as are speculators
...consider lithium. Although the raw material can be produced more cheaply from brine in South America, political, business and legal risks are lower in Australia. Moreover, Mr Brinsden argues that spodumene can be processed directly into lithium hydroxide, which is preferred by battery-makers to the lithium carbonate that comes from lithium chloride in brine.
...the biggest risk for all these projects is price, which in turn hinges on whether car firms make good on their plans for a big increase in investment in electric vehicles. That is still an open question. Though Mr Brinsden is convinced China will “surprise the world” with its role in the battery revolution, he also says Chinese carmakers such as Great Wall and Geely see hybrid vehicles as a stepping stone towards EVs, implying that full electrification will still take time to develop.
China’s electric-vehicle industry is piling in, as are speculators
...consider lithium. Although the raw material can be produced more cheaply from brine in South America, political, business and legal risks are lower in Australia. Moreover, Mr Brinsden argues that spodumene can be processed directly into lithium hydroxide, which is preferred by battery-makers to the lithium carbonate that comes from lithium chloride in brine.
...the biggest risk for all these projects is price, which in turn hinges on whether car firms make good on their plans for a big increase in investment in electric vehicles. That is still an open question. Though Mr Brinsden is convinced China will “surprise the world” with its role in the battery revolution, he also says Chinese carmakers such as Great Wall and Geely see hybrid vehicles as a stepping stone towards EVs, implying that full electrification will still take time to develop.
Do some due diligence regarding:
UMICY
SMMY
ALB
BHP
Co is a by-product of smelting Cu and Ni-rich ores. Mining/refining is not necessarily considered environmentally benign. I've realized decent (or better) appreciation in all four during this era of easy money--YMMV
follow this author Bohlsen
https://seekingalpha.com/article/41...lks-lithium-supply-demand-developments-sector
"The DRC accounted for 66,000 tonnes of global mined cobalt production of 123,000 tonnes last year, according to the U.S. Geological Survey."
Cobalt, the heart of darkness in the shiny electric vehicle story: Andy Home
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Volkswagen's talks with cobalt producers end without deal
“They are looking for prices below the market, they have a lot to learn about cobalt,” one source said. “We didn’t get into the details of how much tonnage they would need.”
Cobalt metal prices at around $30 a lb are up from below $10 a lb in December 2015 and the highest since October 2008.
Sources were unclear about whether VW was planning to buy the cobalt directly or indirectly for chemical and battery makers.
“Other suppliers may be involved, but they weren’t there last week,” a second source said. “They want a fixed price, that’s not possible. They wanted to agree all supply deals by the end of the year, it’s not going to happen.”
“They are looking for prices below the market, they have a lot to learn about cobalt,” one source said. “We didn’t get into the details of how much tonnage they would need.”
Cobalt metal prices at around $30 a lb are up from below $10 a lb in December 2015 and the highest since October 2008.
Sources were unclear about whether VW was planning to buy the cobalt directly or indirectly for chemical and battery makers.
“Other suppliers may be involved, but they weren’t there last week,” a second source said. “They want a fixed price, that’s not possible. They wanted to agree all supply deals by the end of the year, it’s not going to happen.”
Tesla is using around 8-9% by weight for the cells I believe, at least in the vehicle packs, (NCA chemistry). Stationary is NMC which is probably more like 30% by weight. I'd say there is some valid concern with long term cobalt production I just don't know to what degree.
perhaps a flyer of a thousand shares or so in a couple of junior cobalt mining companies maybe? for funsies
you mixing cathode with cell, in NCA Co should be about 8-9% of cathode's weight, about half that in cell's weight. Although Panasonic never disclosed Cobalt content in NCA ...
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