Can't really agree... it's usable, but not "fine". Too much jerkiness in traffic, where a human driver would be (is) much smoother, too much "hunting" back and forth in the lane on curves, especially at speed, and some very scary behavior occasionally on lane splits or when passing an offramp where it will suddenly try to "dive" out of the lane. I use Autosteer/TACC a lot when I'm alone and have some distance to drive on the freeway, but I've given up on using it when my wife is in the car, she finds it very disconcerting and complains about it.
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Things my wife said about Navigate on Autopilot tonight
- Thread starter AlanSubie4Life
- Start date
Can't really agree... it's usable, but not "fine". Too much jerkiness in traffic, where a human driver would be (is) much smoother, too much "hunting" back and forth in the lane on curves, especially at speed, and some very scary behavior occasionally on lane splits or when passing an offramp where it will suddenly try to "dive" out of the lane. I use Autosteer/TACC a lot when I'm alone and have some distance to drive on the freeway, but I've given up on using it when my wife is in the car, she finds it very disconcerting and complains about it.
When I first bought an SDR Radio I was, for a short period of time, a fan boy. I quickly ceased being a fan boy because it was obvious the obsequious sycophants were being painfully naive.
I see the same thing with Tesla products, cars and solar panels. People see what supports their view and ignore everything else. You wife is spot on.
I've owned a Model 3 for just under a year. It's driving performance hasn't demonstrably gotten any better. One could argue it's gotten worse. I get the 'wanting to believe' mindset. These cars are hideously expense, and there is a heap of misinformation provided in the marketing. If they were precisely as advertised it would be phenomenal. It's not.
The car, my car, brakes at shadows, doesn't recognize joggers, still doesn't recognize a speed limit sign or traffic signs. Further, it cannot drive a straight line. Maybe that's a function of processor speed. We, those would ordered FSD, were supposed to get the FSD computer upgrade 30 min field upgrade, last Spring. Ideally, that would help with micro steering adjustments. It probably would do nothing to ignore shadows with no accompanying radar or ultrasonic confirmation.
It was announced this past Spring, as I recall, next year would usher in the Tesla robo fleet. I don't see any calculus where that is even remotely possible.
The real world is not comprised of either fanboys or haters. I do not hate the car. If I knew, in 2017, what I know now, I wouldn't have bought (ordered) it. The car is not what they advertised, especially given the price, which dropped $15k since I bought it. And, btw, that's just new car price to new car price, not adjusting for depreciation. It'll either improve dramatically very soon or it will become the new Delorean.
And, yes, it absolutely IS jerky.
I can predict with near 100% certainty that if an approaching car makes a left turn across my lane of traffic and is clearly far enough away to complete their turn safely without my car needed to slow down AT ALL, the Tesla AP will slam on brakes and then speed back up. Usually this happens AFTER the turning car is safely out of my lane. It happens so predictably I try to turn off the AP when I seen a car making a left turn in that manner.
Artax
Member
Reading this thread, I realize there are an incredible number of Tesla owners out there with a serious case of confirmation bias. Face it folks, AP simply is not 'as advertised'. I would say it is simply crap, but want to be sensitive to folks who spent a lot of money on something that does not live up to expectations. Yes, I am one of those. I bought the 3 in April, but realized quickly after that the Musk hype was just that. And yes, I paid top dollar to include FSD. I am at the point where I simply don't use AP any more. It predictably fails at some point on every single trip.
In fact, these days, the only time I use it is to demonstrate to curious passengers that it WILL fail (abort) at some point... and show them why they should not waste their hard earned dollars on Tesla (lots of other options coming out in 2020/21). Not only does AP consistently fail when on the freeway, but it has problems with lane keeping in simple cruise mode (i.e. single stock bump, not AP); sometimes it it bumps me back into the lane after drifting over a line... sometimes it doesn't. And I hate to say it, but my 2016 Outback never had any issues with such a simple function (if Subaru can do it, you would think Tesla could)..!!
It will be interesting to see what happens when I get retrofitted w/ the new FSD computer... but I am not holding my breath.
In fact, these days, the only time I use it is to demonstrate to curious passengers that it WILL fail (abort) at some point... and show them why they should not waste their hard earned dollars on Tesla (lots of other options coming out in 2020/21). Not only does AP consistently fail when on the freeway, but it has problems with lane keeping in simple cruise mode (i.e. single stock bump, not AP); sometimes it it bumps me back into the lane after drifting over a line... sometimes it doesn't. And I hate to say it, but my 2016 Outback never had any issues with such a simple function (if Subaru can do it, you would think Tesla could)..!!
It will be interesting to see what happens when I get retrofitted w/ the new FSD computer... but I am not holding my breath.
To me, "Off Ramps" is NoA not AP/AutoSteer
AutoSteer (i.e. holding a lane on the highway) is fine. Merging, Ramps, is all NoA and is horrible.
And anything off the highway is not officially supported.
I agree lane Splits are a problem even with AutoSteer. I think that's well understood and why you have to watch it.
If it's 3 lanes or more I try to cruise in the 2nd lane to avoid most lane marking issues, but that does not cover them all.
Haven't had time to read the 7 pages of posts just since yesterday, but to the OP, your wife sounds like mine!
We left a birthday party last night a 9 pm.... 15 miles out on a dark country highway (two lanes) with deer in the area. I was looking forward to AP.... and she says to me "You're going to DRIVE, not the car"....
We left a birthday party last night a 9 pm.... 15 miles out on a dark country highway (two lanes) with deer in the area. I was looking forward to AP.... and she says to me "You're going to DRIVE, not the car"....
The random braking in interchanges. No other cars within 100 yards . Unacceptable. Work on this instead of Mario Kart.
Artax
Member
True, very predictable. However, in this case you are trying to use AP in a scenario not supported. At this stage, AP (double stock bump) should only be used on freeway on to off ramp. Having said that, it does this in simple cruise mode as well (single stock bump). My beef is that Tesla 'offers' (allows, even though not supported by Tesla) AP in non-freeway traffic areas. You would think that if it is not supported, the car wouldn't offer it.
"Was that the car again?"
It really spoils my enjoyment of the car. I find myself defending the car and Tesla even though I get nothing from a decade of support - not even referral credits but actually, I wish that you could just disable TACC below a certain speed, perhaps adjustable. There's a 40mph road that I run very often, it's up and down and a perfect application for cruise control but unlike every other car in the world*, I can't use cruise control because of the phantom braking and the violent resumption of speed - it is the crappiest teenage driver I've ever encountered. There should be a chill mode for the TACC.
It's my hope that the improvements in the AI over time reduce this issue.
(* i3 suffered the same issue, worse even, but you could press-hold the distance control to revert to good old cruise control and peace and quiet and comfort!)
It really spoils my enjoyment of the car. I find myself defending the car and Tesla even though I get nothing from a decade of support - not even referral credits but actually, I wish that you could just disable TACC below a certain speed, perhaps adjustable. There's a 40mph road that I run very often, it's up and down and a perfect application for cruise control but unlike every other car in the world*, I can't use cruise control because of the phantom braking and the violent resumption of speed - it is the crappiest teenage driver I've ever encountered. There should be a chill mode for the TACC.
It's my hope that the improvements in the AI over time reduce this issue.
(* i3 suffered the same issue, worse even, but you could press-hold the distance control to revert to good old cruise control and peace and quiet and comfort!)
SeminoleFSU
Voluntaryist
I believe that flakiness around exit or entrance ramps is the car using the side cameras to check to see if there's an oncoming car it will need to allow to merge into traffic. Because the side cameras are not stereo and therefore can't judge distance that well it is very cautious and starts to slow down in most cases as sort of a pre-check to determine if another car will want to join into the lane you're in. I believe this weakness will lead to an AP4 where the side (turn indicator cams) and rear cam become stereo and a rear radar is added.
Dr. J
Active Member
Tesla is developing a new processor for full self-driving known as Autopilot 3 or Hardware 3: Tesla Model S, X with "Hardware 3" for Full Self-Driving now in production, inventory codes indicate. It's not the main chip, but rather the auxiliary chip for self-driving. I believe it will be a free upgrade to those who purchased FSD (for certain) and possibly those with EAP or AP (I'm not certain, and not certain that Tesla is certain).
SeminoleFSU
Voluntaryist
Agreed. If they could just add some sort of rule into the AP software that effectively tells the NN to make the adjustment in such a way that safety is not compromised but g-forces are kept to an absolute minimum this would go a long way. Use the Mad max settings to influence the taper of that accelerate/decelerate "fitler" and it would prob solve the issue. Heck, just prioritizing the AP software to only use the brake when it absolutely has to (and instead use regen until brakes are necessary) would go a long way
FMinMI
Member
Yup. I have tweeted @tesla to FIX THIS. My Volt with ACC does a great job. My friends Subaru has no issues. Yet those engineers think adding games is more important. IT ISN'T!!! I think we should all inundate @tesla and @elonmusk with requests to fix the basic TACC functionality BEFORE doing any more stupid work on games, karaoke, video streaming and other non-critical DRIVING FUNCTIONS until they fix this one safe-driving feature! I am getting sick of what they are doing/no doing... I think I am going to start doing it daily.
Yes, I fully agree that autopilot still has a lot of room for improvement. The jerkiness, the sudden swerves for no apparent reason during a lane change, harder than necessary braking, even the slow start from a stoplight. The worst experience I had was on a divided highway with frequent U-turn and left-turn cuts in the median. Autopilot swerved into every cut and then swerved out. After about 5 of those I turned it off. But I have confidence that this too will improve. Especially with the hardware upgrade for the NN.
SeminoleFSU
Voluntaryist
I think it does this for two reasons:
1) If you're traveling at your set max speed, it won't exceed it where as most human drivers will speed up a little when changing lanes just to make sure they overtake anyone they didn't see in that lane (blind spot for example)
2) Yes, it's trying to make sure no one is in the lane you're telling it to get into. And this is hard for it to do with the turn indicator cams because they aren't stereo so judging the closing speed of cars around it is not easy in mono. Stereo side cams and a rear radar that has a wider beam allowing it to pick up cars behind us in adjacent lanes would probably do the trick
I have to agree with some of that.
Over on the other forum someone stated that if you set the "Auto Pilot Speed Limit Offset" to -20 mph you will get WAY less phantom braking. It is belived that some of the phantom braking is not shadows from bridges but the system getting confused for a moment what the Posted Speed Limit is and picks up the Speed Limit of the road crossing above it for just a moment. By setting it to -20 mph it defeats the Automatic Speed Limit adjustment (mostly). I've driven it for a 1 month that way and not one "Bridge" has tripped it. The other day I factory reset the car and forgot to set it back to -20. First day out WHAM worst phantom brake ever and I saw a car behind me swerve out to the other lane. When you engage TACC with the -20 mph offset it will not initialize at the current speed limit nor will it go to -20 below it. It's a quirky work around but it eliminates most phantom braking. I have seen a couple other cases where a truck was pulled over, cars merging in to the lane next to me and it thinking it might be a threat. Both over reactions. But no more "shadows".
I kind of expected prices to drop and FSD to take at least 5 years from when I bought it and mainly bought FSD for the computer upgrade. The only thing that pissed me off is Tesla saying on the Web Page FSD would be $5K later and then had a sale for $2K. For that reason I am NOT buying FSD on my Model X. I'll wait for another "sale".
One big concern I have on FSD is, I don't think it's feasibly safe to implement without some form of Rear Radar, probably side radar too. And probably more sensor hardware. How would you drive through an intersection when the crossing road has no Stop Sign but you do. It does not see cars coming from the side at a distance, or behind you at a distance !! Maybe Highway FSD is feasible with current hardware.
Artax
Member
It is called 'confirmation bias'; no-one likes to admit they were fooled into paying big dollars for something that does not live up to the hype. I am on the same page as you. Realized after about 2 months that I paid a lot of $$ for something that does not perform as advertised. Elon claims that it is the only car that will appreciate in value, while he depreciates the value by dropping prices. I am still waiting for my FSD retrofit, but not holding my breath that it will improve anything. I actively tell folks not to buy Tesla (for this reason, and because their customer service sucks and they refuse to fix quality defects); wait for the many other options coming out in 2020/21.
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