Things my wife said about Navigate on Autopilot tonight

[Knightshade]

no

Then your objection to Tesla likewise allowing the driver to recognize when to use AP or not, just as it lets him recognize what speed to drive at or recognize if engaging a moving gear without a seat belt enaged is the correct course of action- makes even less sense.

If you can correctly understand and recognize the appropriate speed for a given driving situation you should be just as capable of recognizing if you're on a limited-access highway or not.

You continue to appear to want to be mad about this for no actual reason.

 

[gcmak]

Coming from a 2018 Golf R with full-speed adaptive cruise and lane centering...your wife is right and my family/friends have complained the most as passengers...but even as the driver it's obnoxious and sometimes dangerous - still getting those phantom brakes with shadows. Like you I continue to try it but I tend to only use it in stop/go scenarios now.

 

[Knightshade]

Also, the whole "don't use AP when not on interstates" is ridiculous. So we only have cruise control on divided highways? What if I have a 2 hour drive on a secondary road? If Tesla doesn't want us to use TACC on non divided highways, they should run standard cruise control in those areas instead, just like cars without AP.

AP is not TACC.

AP is TACC plus other features. Some of which (auto steer in particular) are explicitly only intended for use on divided/limited access highways.

TACC doesn't say anything about a limited access requirement (though does specify not to use it on city streets)- so use on say a secondary undivided highway wouldn't be a problem for TACC. It's explicitly incorrect use of AP though.

If the couple of idiots who were on AP where they shouldn't have been and ran under trucks had only been using TACC- thus required to be watching the road and actively steering- they wouldn't have killed themselves by being idiots.

 

[Octo]

Then your objection to Tesla likewise allowing the driver to recognize when to use AP or not, just as it lets him recognize what speed to drive at or recognize if engaging a moving gear without a seat belt enaged is the correct course of action- makes even less sense.

If you can correctly understand and recognize the appropriate speed for a given driving situation you should be just as capable of recognizing if you're on a limited-access highway or not.

You continue to appear to want to be mad about this for no actual reason.

haha. You interpreted “no” wrong LOL.

 

[Knightshade]

haha. You interpreted “no” wrong LOL.

Yes your inability to communicate clearly or understandably is hilarious

 

[wrishel]

Wife: "Why is it so jerky?"

Me: "Well, it can decelerate somewhat abruptly while on freeway interchanges..."

Wife: "It's not just around corners, it's all the time on the freeway; why do you use it if it is so bad?"

Me: "Well, I'm trying it out; I think maybe you notice less if you're driving"

Wife: "Well, I notice it. It's ok to try it out if you're the only one in the car, but it isn't cool to do it otherwise"

Me: ...

Wife: If you keep trying to use it, I'm going to stop riding in this car, and we're going to have to take my car*. It's not relaxing.

Me: <disengages Autopilot for remainder of trip>

<a couple minutes pass>

Wife: It's much smoother now. Did you turn it off?

Me: Yes, I did.

Wife: I'm much more relaxed now.


* My wife's car is a Chevrolet Spark EV. That tells you something.

You can't make this stuff up!

Here's hoping that Tesla discovers low pass filters soon.

Right on, friend! I would add that it's not limited to nav on autopilot. The same lack of a low-pass filter is a significant issue for traffic aware cruise control. The first TACC I had was on my Chevy Volt and it is nearly perfect, but I understand that GM and other manufacturers mastered the low pass filter on their enhanced cruise controls many years ago.

And you have correctly described how disturbing this problem is. It's even more disturbing that this is a "small matter of programming" totally ignored by Tesla.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I have been driving AP1 since 2016 and AP2.5 since 2018 and it is definitely safer with than without, even when you have to use it as a driver assist feature within the limitations of what it can and cannot do.

Do you find the TACC on AP2 to come close to the implementation on AP1? Never mind lane keep and other such features, just TACC.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I have AP3 (without NoA) and I run with low regen. It doesn't have any effect.

Have you had the opportunity to compare the current behavior on HW2.5 vs HW3? Is HW3 any better?

 

[DopeGhoti]

Isn't HW3 just running the same software as HW2.5 until the new major software release hits?

 

[TeeEmCee]

Isn't HW3 just running the same software as HW2.5 until the new major software release hits?

Probably, but it was supposed to be be much faster hardware, even for the existing implementation.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Probably, but it was supposed to be be much faster hardware, even for the existing implementation.

There is no evidence that faster hardware is required for the current feature set. Specifically for the topic of this thread, obviously processing power is not the issue. If anything, faster hardware would make it worse (though at the timescales of interest I doubt it would make any difference)!

 

[TeeEmCee]

There is no evidence that faster hardware is required for the current feature set. Specifically for the topic of this thread, obviously processing power is not the issue. If anything, faster hardware would make it worse (though at the timescales of interest I doubt it would make any difference)!

It's all based on image recognition, currently with a rather low resolution and frequency. I can't imagine how speeding that up would not improve things.

 

[DopeGhoti]

It's all based on image recognition, currently with a rather low resolution and frequency. I can't imagine how speeding that up would not improve things.

As a wise man once said:

To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer.

Taking existing code and just "make do go faster" could have all sorts of unintended consequences if not properly implemented. Possible bad results, off the top of my head: What used to be a smooth, sane lane change now careens the car to the side of the road because the steering wheel is being turned ten times more quickly than intended. What used to be a 30-second nag is now a 0.3 second nag. I'd be quite surprised if HW3 Teslas on the road today were not undreclocked or otherwise somehow self-limiting to match HW2.5 performance expectations.

 

[rickdogg82]

Agreed. I've been seeing similar posts, and I'm wondering if all of these reports of "jerkyness" are coming from owners who don't have "hardware 3" yet - my model 3 was made just before they started making new cars with hardware 3 already installed. Can anyone with hardware 3 chime in?

It sucks.

 

[DopeGhoti]

It sucks.

Care to elaborate?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It's all based on image recognition, currently with a rather low resolution and frequency. I can't imagine how speeding that up would not improve things.

The whole problem (possibly) is that it is reacting too quickly. That implies it is likely plenty fast already.

One of the functions of a low pass filter is slowing things down - and potentially one of the safety issues of “fixing” the jerkiness via such a method would be that it would also introduce latency (due to causality). There was a whole post above hypothesizing about the main problem being “jerk.”

There are more complex control systems engineering methods that can probably smooth the response without introducing dangerous latency. You have to make sure they are stable and robust, though. I’m no control systems expert.

 

[rickdogg82]

Care to elaborate?

Too hard on the brakes, braking when unnecessary, too hard on the accelerator. Simply not smooth enough to mimic the actions of an average to poor driver. it is great on wide open stretches with few cars and limited changes in speed. It waits to late for off-ramps. Wants to change into a "faster" lane when the current lane is fine. It is more an issue with Autopilot in general. For reference I think TACC sucks too unless you are in bumper to bumper traffic.

 

[diamond.g]

Also, the whole "don't use AP when not on interstates" is ridiculous. So we only have cruise control on divided highways? What if I have a 2 hour drive on a secondary road? If Tesla doesn't want us to use TACC on non divided highways, they should run standard cruise control in those areas instead, just like cars without AP.

I mean you can use AP pretty much anywhere, NoA on the other hand is (sometimes) limited to limited access highways.

 

[FMinMI]

So your main complaint it is behaves oddly when you use it someplace it is explicitly not meant to be used






Ditto.

AP is explicitly only intended for use on divided/limited access highways-where all the traffic is going in the same direction and enter/exit is via ramps.... so you're not supposed to be using it in places that have cross traffic or turn lanes.




If it's still doing this stuff once you have the HW3 computer and the actual FSD code that is meant to work in those situations then it's a valid complaint.

Until then it's not bad programming- it's user error.

I find that completely unacceptable. Cruise control should work on any roadway. There are many long, straight roads where it is too easy to exceed the speed limit thus the reason I need to use it. Never have I seen any mfg state that cruise must ONLY be used on highways or limited access roads. In reading the manual, I like how Tesla says:

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily
intended for driving on dry, straight roads,
such as highways and freeways. It should not
be used on city streets"

yet a few paragraphs later it says it can be engaged at speeds above 18MPH. Yeah, right. We have SO many highways where the speed limit is 20 or 30 mph. I also love where it says to

"not use on roads where traffic conditions are constantly changing".

So that means I can only use it on highways where all the traffic stays in the same lane and goes the same speed, right?

Our 2017 Volt with ACC (Adaptive Cruise Control) works perfectly 99% of the time. Phantom braking is almost non-existent on local streets or highways, it never slams on the brakes when a car crosses its path (when the car is obviously a reasonable distance away) and it maintains speed / doesn't over react when a car appears on the on-ramp next to it (unless it starts to pull in my lane). My MS does all the fore-mentioned way too much and scares the hell out of my wife and me.

There is no user error - it IS lack of proper programming or if you prefer implementation. If they can't figure out how to make TACC work better, then they should at least give the option to turn off TACC and revert to plain old cruise control when it will keep the selected speed until the brake is pressed or disengaged by the stalk. Its not what I paid for (have FSD) but would be better that being forced to not have cruise control at all, which is what I sometimes end up doing...

 

[FMinMI]

It's not an either/or proposition. There are entirely separate teams of engineers with very different skill sets working on Autopilot and infotainment. You wouldn't go into a busy restaurant and suggest that the bartender go into the kitchen and help out the cooks.

In addition, porting a new game to run in the car might only take a matter of hours once the licensing is settled, and it opens up a whole new activity while waiting at a Supercharger--something that reduces the apparent passage of time spent charging, which as we all know is a huge barrier to EV adoption.

Building stuff like games and Easter eggs on the side is also a big morale booster, allowing the dev team to achieve some quick wins and lower their crazy-high stress levels while having a little bit of fun.

(Source: 10 years of experience managing software engineers and 10 years of being one)

The fact Elon tweets about it so much gives me the strong impression that this is not being done 'on the side', and those resources should be replaced with programmers who could/should be working on the functionality of AP. After all, the deadline for it has dramatically slipped. I feel sorry for all the folks who bought FSD all the way back in 2014 only now to hear their $5K (?) is not going to get them anything after all.