Thinking about joining legal action on recent massive price cut

[Knightshade]

That isn't apples and oranges because that also gives you actual FSD as well. The only overlap is Nav on Autopilot and enhanced summon. ​

That's simply not true.

Currently the overlap between EAP and FSD is 100%.

There are NO features in FSD that aren't already in EAP.

For new car (non EAP ones) the only way to get most of those EAP feautres (many more than the 2 you list, like auto park, turn signal lane change, etc) is buying FSD- but you ONLY get those features- nothing more- right now.

You will get more eventually (maybe by end of this year) but not today.

​

 

[Nocturnal]

That's simply not true.

Currently the overlap between EAP and FSD is 100%.

There are NO features in FSD that aren't already in EAP.

For new car (non EAP ones) the only way to get most of those EAP feautres (many more than the 2 you list, like auto park, turn signal lane change, etc) is buying FSD- but you ONLY get those features- nothing more- right now.

You will get more eventually (maybe by end of this year) but not today.

​

Disagree. There are a discrete set of features that buying FSD gives you access to that EAP does not. You can say they aren't released yet but that doesn't mean there isn't value there. Of course there is, people have purchased it. I valued it at 2k myself when I jumped on the sale, and others purchased at 3k or likely 4k. If people bought it, there is value.

 

[Knightshade]

Disagree.

Then you're factually wrong. Not much more to say.

If you are buying a car today which is the actual topic then the only way to get all EAPs features is to buy FSD.

And doing so gets you only the full EAP feature set. Today. And nothing, at all, more.

Those are the facts.

Nobody's debating that you might get MORE stuff "someday"- you likely will. But that's not, at all, the thing we're actually discussing. We're pointing out you can't leave off the $6000 charge on a new car and then be fairly comparing how much "cheaper" it is compared to an EAP car- since the new car lacks a bunch of actual, here-today, features that EAP provides and that you need to pay 6k for FSD today to get.

 

[DB-Cooper]

Then you're factually wrong. Not much more to say.

If you are buying a car today which is the actual topic then the only way to get all EAPs features is to buy FSD.

And doing so gets you only the full EAP feature set. Today. And nothing, at all, more.

Those are the facts.

Nobody's debating that you might get MORE stuff "someday"- you likely will. But that's not, at all, the thing we're actually discussing. We're pointing out you can't leave off the $6000 charge on a new car and then be fairly comparing how much "cheaper" it is compared to an EAP car- since the new car lacks a bunch of actual, here-today, features that EAP provides and that you need to pay 6k for FSD today to get.

Everyone agrees with the technicality, we just disagree on the value comparison. If I sell my car today, privately or to a dealer, they will look and see EAP and either not know what it is (literally a trade in delaer might notice it's not on tesla.com and assume its value is diminished or even nothing) or know it is a feature limited version of FSD. Similarly, a private party buyer that has done any research will notice FSD is not included, thus, it's value is diminished. Maybe an uneducated buyer will ask if it has Summon and be a sucker, but that is a very niche user base. Also, proven that we have the option to buy FSD today as an add-on to EAP, clearly EAP + FSD is something, FSD alone is something and EAP alone is something. All everyone cares about is FSD at this point. If you were buying a car today, and two cars were otherwise identical (miles, one day different build date), one had EAP and one had FSD and they were the exact same price, would you buy the one that is 1/2 mile closer to your residence with EAP because they're the same? If you would drive the extra 1/2 mile to get the FSD one at the same price, then we do agree.

To me this is kind of more like buying a car when there's a promotion for an extended 10 year warranty and maintenance contract versus buying a car 1 month earlier or later where it's not included. Functionally today the cars have the same inherent value, but in 2 years, I'd love the one that had the extra 7 years of warranty. When I sell the car down the road, the one with extended coverage would carry some premium.

Everyone agrees, today the car is effectively the same, but I believe even today on the resale market, the FSD equipped cars will command a premium and/or more desirability even though there's no difference today. As more time goes and FSD feature set expands, EAP will fall and basically become some outdated AP+Hwy NOA, and if development moves to HW3 it may get a bad rep. That's our point.

 

[Knightshade]

Also, proven that we have the option to buy FSD today as an add-on to EAP, clearly EAP + FSD is something, FSD alone is something and EAP alone is something.

If (for EAP cars) by something you mean "a promise of something in the future that does literally nothing, at all, today" then sure.

All everyone cares about is FSD at this point

I mean, except for all the "should I buy FSD threads" where tons of folks post they don't care about future promises, and are happy with EAP (or even basic AP for new buyers), then sure...

Everyone agrees, today the car is effectively the same, but I believe even today on the resale market, the FSD equipped cars will command a premium and/or more desirability even though there's no difference today.

Ok, but... that's not the actual thing being debated.

We were comparing "previously bought EAP cars" to "buying a new Model 3 today" to see if the new car was really "thousands and thousands cheaper!!!"

And the only way to do apples to apples is to add FSD to a new car, since that's the only way to get the same features, today as an older EAP has.

And once you do that (and consider the other differences mentioned like the tax credit and other inclusions no longer included) that thousands of dollars usually drops to hundreds- often to less than the gas savings you got buying sooner.

That's certainly true for myself- who is actually ahead, financially, TODAY, having bought last year instead of today, even though the "sticker" price on a new car is less.

As more time goes and FSD feature set expands, EAP will fall and basically become some outdated AP+Hwy NOA, and if development moves to HW3 it may get a bad rep. That's our point.

Are people having a ton of trouble selling AP1 Model S cars? Because those are pretty dated tech-wise by now but AFAIK they still sell pretty well- and all the data I've seen suggests they have the best resale value in their class.

So that seems to disagree with your assumptions.

 

[PoitNarf]

I've only been paying attention to this thread to see how high the "disagrees" on the original post gets. Come on 400!

 

[Sutton 3P]

I've only been paying attention to this thread to see how high the "disagrees" on the original post gets. Come on 400!

It was quite a mild statement to get ~100x more dislikes than likes. I think it's pretty easy to understand that Tesla left significant margins on the table so they could extract maximum profits from early adopters and then dial back margins when demand wanes. How much damage these tactics do to the brand remains to be seen. Tesla seems to be betting that it won't really matter and the response on this forum seems to confirm that.

 

[Glamisduner]

Tesla sounds should sell insurance against price drops. They would make a killing!

 

[MXWing]

Hypothetically, if a retroactive $5,000 tax credit is issued for purchases in 2019 - who is going to do the right thing, split the difference and write Tesla a check for $2,500?

It's sharing the subsidy as Tesla would immediately find a way to raise the price by that much for new owners.

 

[KimVerska]

I'm curious what the OP believes the legal basis for a claim against Tesla would be. You can't just assert a desire to sue, you need to have been 1) damaged , 2) the damages were caused by Tesla and 3) that Tesla breached an obligation to you. I see a plausible argument for #1 and #2, but don't see how you can establish that Tesla had an obligation to you in this situation. Typically, a seller of goods and services has no obligation to a prior customer for subsequent price changes unless you could demonstrate fraud that induced you to buy at the price you did. For example, if you had been told that there would be no price reductions for a period of time and then it happened, that would maybe work.

Well-stated, poster! Sadly, though, nothing will stop OP from suing, alleging fraud and the like, as long as he can fund his own legal fees -- he won't be finding any lawyer willing to take this one on contingency!

 

[wdolson]

Well-stated, poster! Sadly, though, nothing will stop OP from suing, alleging fraud and the like, as long as he can fund his own legal fees -- he won't be finding any lawyer willing to take this one on contingency!

The OP might find it difficult to find any lawyer willing to take the case. Many states have laws that can sanction lawyers for bringing lawsuits that are too frivolous.

 

[jamessmooth007]

The OP might find it difficult to find any lawyer willing to take the case. Many states have laws that can sanction lawyers for bringing lawsuits that are too frivolous.

He's in California. GUARANTEED someone will take this case. Probably building it as we speak since he's not been on in 21 weeks.

 

[JamesBrown]

That's simply not true.

Currently the overlap between EAP and FSD is 100%.

There are NO features in FSD that aren't already in EAP.

For new car (non EAP ones) the only way to get most of those EAP feautres (many more than the 2 you list, like auto park, turn signal lane change, etc) is buying FSD- but you ONLY get those features- nothing more- right now.

You will get more eventually (maybe by end of this year) but not today.

​

My OA said Advanced Summon is being released Aug 15th for FSD owners only. But I take most things he says with a grain of salt because he is trying really hard to get me to buy a new MX.

The only thing I have learned for sure about Tesla price & feature changes is that they are unpredictable and someone always complains about them.

 

[jgmartin]

By your logic, Ford owes me about $20k on my raptor.

Some people...

 

[JamesBrown]

By your logic, Ford owes me about $20k on my raptor.

Some people...

Imagine if everyone that purchased Windows 10 for $139 tried to sue Microsoft for giving away free copies.

 

[Knightshade]

My OA said Advanced Summon is being released Aug 15th for FSD owners only. But I take most things he says with a grain of salt because he is trying really hard to get me to buy a new MX.

The only thing I have learned for sure about Tesla price & feature changes is that they are unpredictable and someone always complains about them.

Also that front-line tesla employees usually know less about things than you'd expect.

Enhanced summon was a specific, advertised, feature for EAP when it was sold.

The last one, in fact, yet to be released- after that EAP is feature complete and shouldn't expect anything further besides perhaps improvements/bug fixes to existing features.

 

[trm2]

I've only been paying attention to this thread to see how high the "disagrees" on the original post gets. Come on 400!

I just added one!

 

[Octo]

How much damage these tactics do to the brand remains to be seen. Tesla seems to be betting that it won't really matter and the response on this forum seems to confirm that.

Personally I find Tesla, the company, terrible. I haven’t really followed it in the past but my experience buying the Model 3 was the worst of any (coming from Peugeot, Mazda, VW, Audi, BMW and Porsche) and their CEO is simply a liar.

I do find the actual product extremely good (except for the autonomous features) but if competition gets their act together, I’m going to switch to another EV in a second.

 

[wdolson]

He's in California. GUARANTEED someone will take this case. Probably building it as we speak since he's not been on in 21 weeks.

California has frivolous lawsuit laws. I looked it up, it's covered in CCP 128.5 and CCP 128.7. Most of the lawyers I know are too scared of getting slapped with sanctions to take on a lawsuit that looks dodgy. Though I'm in Washington State and each state's courts do things differently and have different thresholds for these sorts of things.

The way I've seen it in the real world, if someone tries some kind of novel argument, the courts will usually allow it the first time, even if they dismiss it for lack of merit. The lawyer won't get sanctioned for trying something new. But if something has been tried before and thrown out, the courts will usually not be kind to the lawyer.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone did this before in California considering that it's home to so much high tech and sharp declines in retail prices for electronics is not unusual.

 

[MoHazee4]

Are you going to complain about the tax credits that you got that you can't get now?

No - They were a great incentive from the Federal Govt. Tesla didn't give me that credit, so there is no beef with Tesla on that front.