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This is really bad..we are so spoiled

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I drove a Porsche Macan the other day. Very nice inside, but drove like a Russian Lada compared to my Model S.

One problem with this outlook IMO is, this applies only when used in the scenario where a BEV shines. Take a great ICE into a scenario where that great ICE shines, the situation becomes different. There certainly is a scenario and three where a comparably priced Macan would drive better than a Model S.

People whose driving fits perfectly into the situation where BEV shines, and can afford one and for whom the available form-factors/features fit, certainly have no need for an ICE anymore. But that is just a subset of people.
 
One problem with this outlook IMO is, this applies only when used in the scenario where a BEV shines. Take a great ICE into a scenario where that great ICE shines, the situation becomes different. There certainly is a scenario and three where a comparably priced Macan would drive better than a Model S.

People whose driving fits perfectly into the situation where BEV shines, and can afford one and for whom the available form-factors/features fit, certainly have no need for an ICE anymore. But that is just a subset of people.
I agree with you, but what surprised me was how many scenarios I forced to fit my BEV.
Trips which would have been infinitely more convenient in the ICE I still ended up taking the Tesla, even if it meant charging for hours on slow outlets, or parking in the middle of a field to use a three phase socket.
 
I agree with you, but what surprised me was how many scenarios I forced to fit my BEV.
Trips which would have been infinitely more convenient in the ICE I still ended up taking the Tesla, even if it meant charging for hours on slow outlets, or parking in the middle of a field to use a three phase socket.

Certainly - I have done the same and expect to do the same in the future as well. It is not always possible for me to do that schedule-wise, but when it is, certainly I am open to doing the same (and have done the same).

BEV's drivetrain benefit as well as direct environmental benefits (the indirect debate I'm not an expert on) are real and encourage pushing usecases. At least for me. Others may feel different.

One major element is, many drivers in the world probably just don't care what they drive. It is just about getting from A to B. For them the ICE vs. BEV benefit is not so easy to sell yet, especially if the practicalities are challenging...

Time and progress will help.
 
Regardless of how expensive the ICE vehicle is, the same stuff is coming out the tailpipe. Unless Porsche or Mercedes has developed something they are keeping really secret! I used to always back in to parking spots because I did not want to have to back out through my own cloud of cold start stinky exhaust. Now that is not a concern at all. If I get in the car and start it in the garage I don't have to immediately pull out before picking out music, setting my navigation destination, etc. When waiting a half hour for a ferry on a cold day I got to stay in a warm car the entire time, instead of having to turn off my engine and get cold while the windows fog up. Leaving a backed up parking garage I am not sitting gassing other people out on the exhaust fumes. These are little luxuries that an ICE cannot do, no matter the cost.
 
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Obviously. However, let's be honest: there are a lot of little and big luxuries current BEVs can not do either that ICE cars can.

The difference, of course, is that all the luxuries that you lament as missing in Teslas are missing not because they can't inherently be a part of BEV, but because of the priorities: the money were spent on new technology, the technology that **inherently** provides these other luxuries that absolutely can't be provided by an ICE. While not everybody shares it, you longing for opulence in a car you paid $xxx for is understandable, but I must say a bit disingenuous, as you seem to be well aware of the Tesla luxuries that ICE can't match, but are apparently not willing to assign proper value to them. Hence your refrain about things that are "missing" in a car that costs $xxx.
 
The difference, of course, is that all the luxuries that you lament as missing in Teslas are missing not because they can't inherently be a part of BEV, but because of the priorities: the money were spent on new technology, the technology that **inherently** provides these other luxuries that absolutely can't be provided by an ICE.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Tesla's reasoning that they are prioritizing luxuries that absolutely can't be provided by an ICE, as such. I think Tesla in many ways is not prioritizing luxuries at all IMO. Don't get me wrong: Tesla's provide luxurious off the line performance for example, but as you say, that is inherent to the BEV benefit. I think Tesla's priority has been creating a compelling-enough battery-electric vehicles for the masses, not so much luxuries at all so far.

And that, really, is fair enough. But for a buyer looking to buy a car with certain level of equipment, it creates a situation where compromises have to be made one way or the other (BEV drivetrain vs. ICE's in-car luxueries).

That said, I don't disagree with you on the fact that many of the ICE luxuries BEVs are currently missing certainly can and likely in the future will be added to BEVs as well. Many things in BEVs are missing because the companies that are good at that extra layer of stuff have so far been bad at delivering BEVs - and Tesla, good at delivering BEVs, has been bad at delivering that extra layer thus far.

Finally, there are some inherent benefits to ICEs that will be harder to solve for BEVs and are missing because of that: sustained high-end performance is one major thing. There are also some conveniences that are missing for similar reasons: super-fast refuelling, very long range etc. that are eluding BEVs so far due to challenges inherent to BEVs, not just because someone didn't get around to adding them on top.

While not everybody shares it, you longing for opulence in a car you paid $xxx for is understandable, but I must say a bit disingenuous, as you seem to be well aware of the Tesla luxuries that ICE can't match, but are apparently not willing to assign proper value to them. Hence your refrain about things that are "missing" in a car that costs $xxx.

What is the proper value? I see my views as more like brutal honesty, as usual, though of course my views = my opinions to be clear. I don't share the need that some IMO on TMC have to sugarcoat stuff simply because they believe in the BEV or Tesla mission. I'd rather look at it the way it is. If something is missing, I'll just point it out.

If something is missing from a car being bought today, then it is missing. A Tesla bought today will never get hot stone massage. If hot stone massages matter to you, you must consider the S Class instead of Model S. If both BEV drivetrain and hot stone massage is what you want, then you're SOL. That's just the way it is at the moment.

I think the best value I have assigned to BEVs are the Model S P85 and Model X P100D that I've purchased in 2014 and 2017 respectively. I also think Model 3 will succeed and the future is BEV (with some small, but all the time less likely chance with other alternative fuels).

In the meanwhile, it is a compromise that means for some scenarios I still personally look to ICE and do use ICEs. It will get less and less over time, I expect, but we're not quite there yet.
 
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Do not do, rather than can not do. No matter how much money you spend on an ICE you still cannot run it in a closed garage for four hours. If Rolls Royce decided to do a BEV, they could add all the luxuries expected.

Do not, can not, it is all the same for a car buyer today.

From a technological conversation perspective it is of course true, as I have stated above several times, that many things can be added to new BEVs and will probably be added to new BEVs over time.

Some things are still trickier. For example adding all that what makes a Rolls Royce (weight, size etc. wise) might put demands on the BEV drivetrain that are hard to meet at this stage, as are the high-end performance requirements Germans put on their luxury saloons on the autobahn...
 
OP Here, all the people who say it is not a fair comparison, of course it is not. That being said, the change was remarkable and even if we came from a nice ICE and went into the VW I don't think the change would be as apparent as it was coming from a Tesla to a VW.
We are getting our Tesla back tomorrow. We went into the shop to see how he was progressing. Sadly there were already about ten rock chips on the front end of the car. He tried to tip it with paint but the paint would not hold as soon as XPell was added to it and he needed to readjust.
So XPell was now on top of it to prevent further damage. We sadly have to live with the damage already done. We can really recommend doing paint protection as soon as you get the car. It is worth the investment. We were too late as we we too frugal six weeks ago...
 
OP Here, all the people who say it is not a fair comparison, of course it is not. That being said, the change was remarkable and even if we came from a nice ICE and went into the VW I don't think the change would be as apparent as it was coming from a Tesla to a VW.
We are getting our Tesla back tomorrow. We went into the shop to see how he was progressing. Sadly there were already about ten rock chips on the front end of the car. He tried to tip it with paint but the paint would not hold as soon as XPell was added to it and he needed to readjust.
So XPell was now on top of it to prevent further damage. We sadly have to live with the damage already done. We can really recommend doing paint protection as soon as you get the car. It is worth the investment. We were too late as we we too frugal six weeks ago...

I got my front protected, and rocks STILL put little dents in the film. All the film does is reduce the marks. You can't avoid them completely. I was a little disappointed to discover this as the film is sold as being able to eliminate rock chips. Maybe it's my misunderstanding.
 
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Very unfair comparison... VWs generally have engines and drive trains that are on par with Toyotas... These are <30k cars... and you are comparing one to a 100k SUV...

Compare to a X5M or Macan Turbo or something...

Someone who said that Macan drives shitty is ridiculous... Yes Tesla is good, but Porsches are very good as well... Put a Macan S/GTS/Turbo in sport mode with sport+ PASM and it will respond really well on any road and out handle any Model S or X. Yes it won't be as quick off the line in a straight line, but at speed it will feel much more powerful (except vs. the P100D which is significantly more expensive) and will out-do Model S or X in and out of any corner.
 
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I really could have gone for an interior like this.....
Screen Shot 2017-08-11 at 5.32.14 PM.png
 
The new Audi A8 with feet massage... ;)

2018_audi_a8_31_2560x1440.jpg


Meanwhile Tesla has been moving into this direction...

screen-shot-2017-07-10-at-9-14-54-pm-e1499735989683.png


I had such great hopes for Tesla interiors in 2014. I thought it was a good first effort. When Model X came with the flawed but still pretty nice sculptural rear, I was still thinking: progress.

Since then it has gone downhill. One by one interior choices and luxuries and any inkling of progress has been replaced by removal of choice in trim and things like Model S rear executive seating, removal of features like seat ventilation and Alcantara interior detail, moving towards cheap manual seats like Model X 5/7 seater...

Tesla interiors are a little better today than they were in 2014, but not much.

This is not how I envisioned the progress based on Tesla's first efforts in Model S.
 
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