You could just rip out the headliner entirely, leaving the metal frame exposed. Simply tell your friends that you are a great admirer of the Georges Pompidou Center in Paris:
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I was diagnosed by the gold standard test: removing everything from my house and regular exposure until my allergies went away, then reintroducing things one at a time until they came back. HUGE pain in the neck.
It is of course possible that 99% of polyester is "improperly made", but in that case.... I'm not about to trust Tesla's polyester either.
Brand new news:
I have been notified by Tesla that the headliner cannot be altered at all without damaging the overhead air bags (!?!? -- there's something unnecessary for competent drivers), and as such they would consider headliner alteration to be a safety issue.
As such I have cancelled my reservation. Most unfortunate. I'll have to wait for a more conventionally constructed car which *can* actually be retrofitted.
Well, see you guys when a better electric car comes out!
P.S. The allergies were going on for 20 years with multiple allergists being completely unhelpful until I had the opportunity to actually rebuild my enivronment from "hermit level" up over the course of months (not something most people get a chance to do). I'm quite sure of the diagnosis; it may or may not be "unreacted" material which is the problem, but if this is still present in your average piece of polyester cloth after dozens of washings, then it's present in pretty much all polyester material.
P.P.S. I've been told there's no prick test for most fiber allergies, hence the need for the 'gold standard' process. I first cut down to nothing but cotton (and thankfully my symptoms disappeared at that point), then brought fibers back one at a time, avoiding blends entirely, and waiting two to three weeks after reintroduction to observe symptom changes. The whole process had to be suspended every time I got a cold, obviously. It took over a year, and technically it's still not done because I haven't reintroduced some of the more uncommon fibers.
And yes, I didn't change laundry detergent during the entire process. Etc. Didn't introduce new paints, new books, new materials of any kind.
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You could just rip out the headliner entirely, leaving the metal frame exposed. Simply tell your friends that you are a great admirer of the Georges Pompidou Center in Paris:
I would have been OK with that, actually. But since Tesla has told me that they consider headliner removal a safety issue, that's it, I just had to cancel the reservation. Not much in the way of choice, really.
Perhaps you could spend a night sleeping in a showroom, car or ?? to see if you could tolerate the car as manufactured. I believe I would at least do that before bailing completely on the Tesla. With the new side curtain airbags you may have the same issue with any of the new vehicles you may choose to drive.
Did you make sure it was not "Dry Cleaned" polyester, which has a new mix of solvents and other peoples dirt and allergens mixed into your clothes? Also I know of some that have problems with particular soaps used in regular machines even with multiple rinses. I cannot tolerate "Tide", but Cheer and several others are fine.
Now everyone knows our personal medical histories! Oh well .....
Did you make sure it was not "Dry Cleaned" polyester, which has a new mix of solvents and other peoples dirt and allergens mixed into your clothes? Also I know of some that have problems with particular soaps used in regular machines even with multiple rinses. I cannot tolerate "Tide", but Cheer and several others are fine.
Now everyone knows our personal medical histories! Oh well .....
The airbags are most likely those in the B-pillar. I've never heard of airbags in the headliner proper.
My allergies are to Formaldehyde. I've asked Tesla to make sure the leather was not treated with it. I understand your situation and the seriousness of it. I was confined to my basement for about 3 months before determine a new leather couch was the culprit.
Good luck in your search for the perfect EV.
Good luck in your search for the perfect EV.
Overhead airbags must be the side curtain airbags that are situated above the windows. I'm very sorry to her that you have had to cancel your order, but would suggest that when you get a chance to go and make contact with the headliner just to make sure that it would cause you problems (unless you get in danger by doing that). On the bright side the roadster doesn't even have a headliner, maybe you'll be able to pick up one of those for a good price one day. Anyway, hopefully you will stay in the forum and help us put pressure on tesla to make the model s in a convertible version
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Bummer, neroden. Hope you can stay active on these forums and continue to bring your wisdom and perspective to them!
It's practically impossible to do the "sleep in" test in a showroom, because the showrooms and the buildings nearby are gonna be full of other sources of polyester anyway.
Heck, I start having trouble in most public places which have polyester carpet. I'd either be on allergy pills or already sneezing when I walked in. *sigh* Nice idea though!I've already cancelled. Hey, I can use the money; I'll probably be taking my existing 40 mpg car to the custom shop now. :wink: Electric cars will be universal in 10 years and then I'll be able to find something...
Maybe I'll just be stuck driving old cars. Or maybe I'll find a car with vinyl headliner, since I seem to not be allergic to vinyl or the things it offgases (which I know many people are allergic to!). Or nylon, which I'm also not allergic to. Or actual leather. Or cotton. Or... well, you get the picture. In addition to natural fibers and leathers, here are a whole pile of synthetics I don't seem to have problems with, including both common (nylon, PVC, spandex) and less common (viscose, acecate, and one I can't remember which I found on Amtrak blankets). I seem to have trouble with acrylic fiber as well (this is not as definitive), and with offgassing acrylic, but not other acrylics once they set (acrylic sets hard). But I *don't* have trouble with polyurethane even when it is offgassing....
Now, if there's a reactant or solvent or other common element in the manufacutring process between acrylic and polyester but not with nylon/PVC/spandex/viscose/acetate/polyurethane, that would be VERY interesting and informative.
It definitely has something to do with propensity to "bleed" loose bits. Alcantara is fuzzy. It's gonna bleed. Microfiber is fuzzy. It definitely bleeds.
It was pretty much all old polyester, ranging from 1 - 4 decades old... but I don't think any of it was ever dry-cleaned after first sale. Did they introduce "dry cleaned before sale" on wash-and-wear clothing at some point?
Most interestingly, once the polyester blends were cleared out of my house, I started having a noticeable itchy skin reaction to every piece of polyester fabric (like people with lanolin allergies have to wool items). Previously the itchy reaction was only noticeable on stuff with a *lot* of polyester in it, and I hadn't mentally connected it. (My fiancee said, "So that's why you thought those items of clothing were scratchy when I thought they were soft and smooth!") I've actually checked both "dry clean only" and "wash and wear" polyester blends, with pretty much the same itch reaction. As a control, nylon, cotton, and wool feel fine....
I suspect the fact is that nearly all polyester is slowly "eroding" and releasing some monomer, and that that's what I'm reacting to; or that residual amounts of some reactant are loosely chemically attached to the polyester fibers, and bleed off slowly over the course of decades, which would have the same effect. But it doesn't really matter whether it's polyester-proper or something which is always in polyester, the correlation is way too strong to ignore; I've never found "clean" polyester. The worst are the polyester stuffing for chairs and beds, which seem to be particularly "dirty", and of course carpets.
Yeah, I know people in that position too, but if I'd had problems with that, then the cotton washed in the same soap would have been giving me problems, see....
I really didn't know what was causing the trouble for 20 years. You can bet I was careful about my testing. I saw my chance when I was moving into a new house and was able to leave stuff in the old house. The original diagnosis from the allergists 20 years ago was "dust" allergies -- I came up positive on the prick test for collected household dust, but not for dust mites, pollens, molds, or anything else they test for. When moving into the new house and finding that I had no problems with (in order) wood dust, tile dust, grout dust, paint dust, household cleaners, latex, paint dust, book dust, or soaps, I eventually got down to the fabrics...
It was an interesting year of investigation. Due to how weird and unusual it was, I ended up writing a letter detailing it to the last allergist I saw, just in case another patient ever had the same "undiagnosable" allergies.
It's definitely a relief to know, 'cause now I can happily go into places with other forms of dust and chemicals without worrying. And I do.
The polyester allergy is a pretty public thing anyway, I have to explain it to people all the freaking time.
Anyway, I feel sure there will be more electric cars on the market and one of them, sooner or later, will meet my needs or at least be easily modifiable to do so.
I will say one last thing:
if someone else does get a standard model S and relines / recovers the headliner, dash and door inserts, and seats successfully, let me know -- because if someone else has already done it successfully despite what Tesla says, then I'll feel comfortable ordering a (2014? 2015?) model S and copying the procedure.
if someone else does get a standard model S and relines / recovers the headliner, dash and door inserts, and seats successfully, let me know -- because if someone else has already done it successfully despite what Tesla says, then I'll feel comfortable ordering a (2014? 2015?) model S and copying the procedure.
I hear you. All through my childhood I had a real problem with itchy clothes--especially when they were new. I finally figured out that I was allergic to laundry detergent and the sizing that they put in new clothes. Now I use Ivory Snow or Dreft, wash all new clothes several times and no more problems--except for the 100% cotton permanent press shirts that have replaced the polyester/cotton blends. There is so much sizing in them that the shirts will deteriorate from washing before it all gets out.
Dborn
Confirmed
My suggestion: perhaps you can order your car with the headliner to be supplied SEPARATE to the vehicle, that is, loose. That way you avoid the cost of having a custom shop remove and possibly damage it. A vinyl or similar barrier should be easily installed and may in fact be the finish material or could then be covered in a cotton or woolen fabric of your choice, with the custom shop "finishing" the vehicle construction. This would not involve any "customization" on Teslas part, and to accommodate a very unusual case, they might go for it to secure the sale!
spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
What is the likelihood that Tesla could put the standard headliner in which is still an issue, but may be much easier to customize??
Tesla has to certify the airbag system, of which the headliner is a part according to Nero. Thus they can't deliver it unless it is complete.
Basically, they wouldn't say it outright, but Tesla was saying things which I interpreted to mean that if I did take the headliner out and recover it, due to the integration of the airbags, they would then give me hassle. I wouldn't worry about that with any other car, but Tesla's basically got a monopoly on service at this point, and due to the distance of the nearest service center, Tesla charges a lot. Furthermore, since the headliner installation is nonstandard, I have no guarantee that a custom shop will even be able to do the replacement competently; if the headliner installation were by any of the typical methods, I wouldn't worry. If the car were cheaper, I also wouldn't worry, because there wouldn't be that much money wasted even if I had to write off the car entirely.
So, sort of a perfect storm of problems. At some point it's just not worth trying; after finding out the unusual manufacturing process for the headliner and the fact that it's integrated with the side curtain airbags, Tesla basically told me that they'd be adversarial rather than helpful if I tried to fix the problem, and that's a strong enough indication I should bail out.
If someone else successfully re-covers or replaces their headliner (and the microfiber on the dash and doors, since if I get a Standard I'll have to change that too) let me know and I'll get in line for a '14 model S. But I'm not going to be the first person to try to replace something installed in a brand new way where the manufacturer claims it can't be replaced.
So, sort of a perfect storm of problems. At some point it's just not worth trying; after finding out the unusual manufacturing process for the headliner and the fact that it's integrated with the side curtain airbags, Tesla basically told me that they'd be adversarial rather than helpful if I tried to fix the problem, and that's a strong enough indication I should bail out.
If someone else successfully re-covers or replaces their headliner (and the microfiber on the dash and doors, since if I get a Standard I'll have to change that too) let me know and I'll get in line for a '14 model S. But I'm not going to be the first person to try to replace something installed in a brand new way where the manufacturer claims it can't be replaced.
Have you tried coating a surface with a hypoallergenic Paint?
hypoallergenic Allergy Friendly Certification Program Blog
hypoallergenic Allergy Friendly Certification Program Blog
I'm surprised that with these issues you have not found a auto customizer that can help you. I have a neighbor with similar allergies and they have over the years have hooked up with special people they have worked with for furniture and clothing.
The high end auto shops that do work for celebrities and have have TV shows can make better suggestions to suppliers than I ever could.
They can totally remove cover, coat, seal, or replace your headliner to perfection. That's what they do. You have a pattern (the old headliner) and they can make it airbag safe. They do it all the time. It's just a matter of you approving the materials and possibly the adhesives (of which there are many choices).
Why not spend a day with the local e-phonebook and call around to the major city auto upholsterers? If they are game then follow up with photos of the car interior (even take those yourself.) Have them visit the Tesla store, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever this can be solved after delivery of a completed car. These guys do cars, boats and airplanes. An EV should be cake.
The high end auto shops that do work for celebrities and have have TV shows can make better suggestions to suppliers than I ever could.
They can totally remove cover, coat, seal, or replace your headliner to perfection. That's what they do. You have a pattern (the old headliner) and they can make it airbag safe. They do it all the time. It's just a matter of you approving the materials and possibly the adhesives (of which there are many choices).
Why not spend a day with the local e-phonebook and call around to the major city auto upholsterers? If they are game then follow up with photos of the car interior (even take those yourself.) Have them visit the Tesla store, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever this can be solved after delivery of a completed car. These guys do cars, boats and airplanes. An EV should be cake.
Neroden, my only other thought for you is to maybe get together with someone who does get an early Model S delivery in your area and see if they are willing to take it (with you) to a couple of different after market shops so that those shops can physically see the car and give you a more accurate answer to what your potential options might be. My reservation number (P6398) wont come up until Q1 of 2013 and i am in the Chicagoland area or else I would gladly take a day for you to visit a few shops in the chicagoland area to see in-person what your options are (if any). Best of luck to you, hopefully it will work out for you down the road.
spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
I would be happy to take mine (when it arrives) and show it to my friend at a particular Ford Dealership in CA. They have a tremendously successful, world renowned auto customization team there. I wouldn't be surprised if they could easily pimp your ride.
I'm with a lot of others on this thread that it should be possible to work something out. And that said, the smartest move on your part was to cancel your reservation and wait for someone with a car in hand to take it to a customization shop to see what can be done. At the very least you should be able to have someone just paint the alcantara with a clearcoat polyurethane seal. That would be crude, but it would work. A customizer will be able to do a much more aesthetically professional job with a greater selection of choices.
