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Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada remains amazingly ignorant of what Tesla has accomplished
- Thread starter ecarfan
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- Electric Vehicles
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I'm glad you like your car but your post said Toyota had cars which got 100-300 mpg and that they were far ahead of everyone else in technology.
Just about every automaker has a plug in hybrid which if you only drive a short distance will use the battery and get a fantastically inflated mpg. Toyota has nothing special.
It's no surprise that Uchiymada-san doesn't know. There are likely thirty layers of bureaucracy between him and the people who actually do the work. I doubt he's even driven a car himself in the last twenty years.
Yeah. The Prime is pretty far down my list of PHEVs I would consider. A few I would rather go for:
- Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrid
- VW Golf GTE
- VW Passat GTE
- Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
- Audi A3 e-tron
- BMW i3 REX
- BMW 330e
- Volvo XC90 T8
- Mercedes C350e
- Kia Optima plug-in hybrid
- Kia Niro plug-in hybrid
- etc
It's almost difficult to think of car companies who don't have better options.
We had a 2012 Plug In Prius, and sold (to the dealership) when we purchased our Model X. We actually ordered the PIP online, tracked what boat it was on, etc.
Before that we had a 2005 Prius and a 2007 Prius (traded in for our 2014 Leaf). I also purchased a 2002 Prius with my parents.
Toyota really missed the ball on a number of items that cost us as customers. The primary local dealer ship did a major renovation, but the service area is actually far more difficult to deal with. You end up waiting for ever for someone to come find you, and then you have to walk back to their desk to do the paperwork. Before you pulled up next to their quasi offices, and signed the sheets and off you went.
We may have been interested in the Prius+ (sold in Europe, but not the US), basically a PriusV with a third row. The third row was a major item for us, and we found even the Hybrid Highlander did not do it well, and the model X or a full size minivan really were our only options, and no solid Hybrid minivans from Toyota in the US, despite 10 years of promises.
Now we are looking at when/how to get out of our Leaf and fill our Model 3 reservations (current owner priority).
Toyota is behind the curve again, and will take time to catch up. They went heavy in Fuel Cells, IMHO chasing the higher California ZEV credits per vehicle vs BEV ZEV credits per vehicle.
-Harry
Before that we had a 2005 Prius and a 2007 Prius (traded in for our 2014 Leaf). I also purchased a 2002 Prius with my parents.
Toyota really missed the ball on a number of items that cost us as customers. The primary local dealer ship did a major renovation, but the service area is actually far more difficult to deal with. You end up waiting for ever for someone to come find you, and then you have to walk back to their desk to do the paperwork. Before you pulled up next to their quasi offices, and signed the sheets and off you went.
We may have been interested in the Prius+ (sold in Europe, but not the US), basically a PriusV with a third row. The third row was a major item for us, and we found even the Hybrid Highlander did not do it well, and the model X or a full size minivan really were our only options, and no solid Hybrid minivans from Toyota in the US, despite 10 years of promises.
Now we are looking at when/how to get out of our Leaf and fill our Model 3 reservations (current owner priority).
Toyota is behind the curve again, and will take time to catch up. They went heavy in Fuel Cells, IMHO chasing the higher California ZEV credits per vehicle vs BEV ZEV credits per vehicle.
-Harry
R=Ring Gear
S=Sun Gear
C=Carrier or Planet Gear.
The ground symbols are mechanical grounding points. For example, the ICE engine can be locked to the transmission case to prevent its rotation while the electric motors are working. Sometimes this is a one-way clutch and not a complete lock.
Agree. We drove a Prius with one of my colleague and it even makes us laugh every time we were just accelerating a little bit and the engine starts to roar like crazy. I do not want to sound like a jerk but really, I wonder how someone can purchase this thing... It would be pretty, at least, but even that, it is hard to make worse looking car inside and outside...
A Golf / Passat GTE though (or Audi A3 eTron), THAT, that are well made hybrid enjoyable to ride.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I was reading a Toyota website comparing Prius to Ford Fusion. They actually said that the Fusion had more power but that was wasn't necessary!
I drove a Fusion rental and it's pathetic.
Charging time is not a solved issue. When a BEV can go from empty to full in 5 minutes or less it will be a solved issue. Right now it is a reframed issue ("but everyone stops for a toilet break and a meal").
Right now an ICE can "recharge" almost anywhere in 5 minutes. BEVs simply can't.
That is NOT what EV needs to achieve in order to offset all the disadvantages of ICE.
Look at mobile phone, yes, smartphone does not last 2 weeks with one single charge like the first Nokia mobile phone but it does SO much more than people are willing to accept charging them every night and from time to time during the day.
I see it the same way for EV. Studies have shown plenty of time that most of the time, the daily journey is super small. In France, this is around 27km per day in average. Some needs 50km, some may even needs 100 or 150km round trip so 300km. But nobody is driving 4 hours everyday on highway to go to work.
So the only case scenario you have to manage, (apart from the 0,5% commercial people driving maybe all day long or whatever job requiring driving all day long without any stops), are the very-few-in-a-year longer trip.
And for those, you can do 500km 5 hours driving with one 15mn stop and a full lunch / dinner stops= as much as you want. I do not see this 15mn additional stop as a huge burden considering it is even healthy and safer to cut anyway a 4-5 drive with a pause.
So yeah, this problem is basically already currently solved by Tesla in plenty of places and we just need to have fast charging network that would work with other EVs to develop.
This "5mn-refuel-time" thing is really the last thing people are still trying to hold onto in order to justify the ICE.
brucet999
Active Member
I partly agree with you; as to time, at least. A 500 mile trip takes about 90 minutes longer with Super Charger stops than the one fueling stop my wife's Lexus requires. Yes, we have to stop every couple of hours anyway in the ICE for toilet breaks and to stretch our legs, but that's 5 minutes each time, not 30.
On the other hand, we save about $60 to $75, depending on gasoline prices, so we get "paid" $40 to $50 per hour for the extra time.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
You should also count the time you save every week by not having to drive to the gas station and fill up the car. This can more than make up for a longer travel time on long trips.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I completely agree with your post, although the charging time "burden," such as it is, is even less for me. A 500 km (300 mile) trip starts out with ~ 220 miles of range, so if I figure 4 miles per minute charging I have to charge en-route ~ 20 minutes -- which is time I already spend during breaks.
Even Eeyore is not concerned.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
A significant portion of my work involves driving 250km+, working for 4 hours and then driving back with NO superchargers or fast chargers en route. These journeys are not yet compatible with BEVs without an overnight stay at a destination charger.
I've also had trips where I've "drained the tank" to 10km of range and then needed to go elsewhere immediately and simply couldn't.
Both these scenarios are no issue to ICE vehicles. They can be recharged in 5 minutes. BEVs just can't... yet.
The last episode of Grand Tour Season 1 showed this up beautifully with a spontaneous 200km one way trip between a BMW i3 and an ICE which highlighted that you can't just simply "go" with a BEV like you can with an ICE.
Until such time as a BEV can fully charge in 5 minutes anywhere, including at home, the charging problem is not yet fully solved.
(Note: we have 2 BEVS and 0 ICE cars - some journeys are just not possible for us but would be if we still had an ICE vehicle).
I've also had trips where I've "drained the tank" to 10km of range and then needed to go elsewhere immediately and simply couldn't.
Both these scenarios are no issue to ICE vehicles. They can be recharged in 5 minutes. BEVs just can't... yet.
The last episode of Grand Tour Season 1 showed this up beautifully with a spontaneous 200km one way trip between a BMW i3 and an ICE which highlighted that you can't just simply "go" with a BEV like you can with an ICE.
Until such time as a BEV can fully charge in 5 minutes anywhere, including at home, the charging problem is not yet fully solved.
(Note: we have 2 BEVS and 0 ICE cars - some journeys are just not possible for us but would be if we still had an ICE vehicle).
250 km each way without charging would be a bit much, but I take impulsive 200 km trips all the time. 400-500 km realistic range will be the norm in a few years, even among cheaper BEVs.
My average to date with my X100D has been 210 Wh/km, which means my average range at 100% SOC is around 465 km. I don't push it that far though. I try to avoid going below 10%, and normally the car is only charged to 80%. So, that leaves me an effective ~300 km range with no planning, and if I can start the charging to 100% from my phone ~6 hours ahead of departure, the effective range is ~400 km.
Basically, your 500 km round trip isn't compatible with a BEV, yet, but all that's needed to make it compatible is a supercharger. 20 minutes of charging and you'd be good to go.
Using an i3's limited range and slow charge rate as an example of BEV charging limitations is disingenuous at best.
"Anywhere"? ICE vehicles cannot refuel "anywhere".
You are really stretching to prove your point, and in my opinion, failing to prove it. Tesla has "solved" the "charging problem" for the vast majority of current owners. And Tesla continues to innovate and address the charging issue for all potential owners. See this new announcement from Tesla today Supercharging Cities
A new type of Supercharger, max 72kW, each stall has its own charging hardware so it is not "paired", easier design to install and takes up less space, going into urban areas.
Tesla continues to innovate and expand its own charging network because the other car companies refuse to build anything useful and the private networks are inadequate for most people (too slow, not enough coverage, poorly maintained).
jelloslug
Active Member
For the vast majority of charging, time is not even an issue because the charging is done when you not using the car.
jelloslug
Active Member
There are extreme scenarios where any vehicle would not work. That does not make it not work for the other 99% of the time.
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