Yeah, but it like battery breakthroughs that "just" require manufacture of stable cheap nanomaterials: it might be good, but there could be better. For example if you can synthesize fuels with algae, why not just synthesize diesel or gasoline? Much easier to handle, can be burned in cheap engines and would likely burn much more cleanly and more efficiently than fossil alternatives.
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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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Yeah, but it like battery breakthroughs that "just" require manufacture of stable cheap nanomaterials: it might be good, but there could be better. For example if you can synthesize fuels with algae, why not just synthesize diesel or gasoline? Much easier to handle, can be burned in cheap engines and would likely burn much more cleanly and more efficiently than fossil alternatives.
I think there's a pretty big difference between a small battery/capacitor for a fuel cell vehicle, and a stand-alone BEV. The battery is the only thing that separates a BEV from being viable at certain price points at specific range values.
It'd be like saying a good hybrid can translate into a strong 250+ mile range BEV.
Agreed - and a good hybrid can translate to a strong 250+ mile BEV if a good battery pack is added - the drive motors and accessories should already be suitable (unless the manufacturer does something stupid like separating the battery pack from the drive motors with a DC-DC converter, of course...)
Another Japanese magazine editor purchased Mirai in Japan.
「ã“ã‚Œã˜ã‚ƒä½¿ãˆãªã„ï¼ã€ãƒŸãƒ©ã‚¤ã®æ°´ç´ å……å¡«ã¯å¹³æ—¥ã®17時ã¾ã§ã¨ã„ã†ç¾å®Ÿï¼ WEB CARTOP
Seems H2 consumption rate is 90km/kg or 387km=242 miles per full tank. They tried to take Mirai to Fuji circuit to cover some races there, but the H2 station was closed at 5pm and they gave up refueling and took another gas car instead.
H2 cost is 1100 JPY per kg, so one full tank would cost 4730 JPY, or 16.3 cents per mile.
The reporter said the closest H2 station is a mobile station (i.e. ICE truck with H2 tanks and compressor and precooler and dispenser), and it only opens 9am to 1pm (4 hours) on weekdays. Usually, only one Mirai comes each day on average to those mobile stations, and six Mirais to stationary (!?) stations in one day.
「ã“ã‚Œã˜ã‚ƒä½¿ãˆãªã„ï¼ã€ãƒŸãƒ©ã‚¤ã®æ°´ç´ å……å¡«ã¯å¹³æ—¥ã®17時ã¾ã§ã¨ã„ã†ç¾å®Ÿï¼ WEB CARTOP
Seems H2 consumption rate is 90km/kg or 387km=242 miles per full tank. They tried to take Mirai to Fuji circuit to cover some races there, but the H2 station was closed at 5pm and they gave up refueling and took another gas car instead.
H2 cost is 1100 JPY per kg, so one full tank would cost 4730 JPY, or 16.3 cents per mile.
The reporter said the closest H2 station is a mobile station (i.e. ICE truck with H2 tanks and compressor and precooler and dispenser), and it only opens 9am to 1pm (4 hours) on weekdays. Usually, only one Mirai comes each day on average to those mobile stations, and six Mirais to stationary (!?) stations in one day.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
The idea of fuel cell range extenders for EVs is absurd. A tautology. The Mirai is already an EV with extremely low range, extended by the fuel cell. To make the battery on the Mirai bigger, for example the size/range of a Plugin Prius, Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV or Volt now that would be an abomination. Why not add an ICE too while your at it?
Incredulocious
LEAF → RAV4EV → Model 3 → Model Y
Well, here's one, over on the RAV4 EV forum (starts with third post down, from "bruin nut"):
Toyota Rav4 EV Forum View topic - more (technical) info about the Mirai
He or she hasn't taken well to the reaction from the rest of us about Toyota and its Mirai, or hydrogen fuel cells in general.
wraithnot
Model 3 VIN #2942 Model S VIN #5785
Here's an article comparing initial demand for the Mirai to initial demand for the LEAF and Volt:Initial Demand For Toyota Mirai In The US Not Good, Only 600 Apply
I'd agree with Bruin Nut that you guys could have been more polite. I think the time where we really should pull our punches is approaching.
I remember that point in time with the Fisker Karma, I think it was approximately after the second fire, when I really got a bad taste in my mouth when criticizing the Fisker Karma as we had been doing for the past few months. I'm just not a huge fan of kicking someone while they are down. They bought an FCV - isn't that punishment enough?
Yes, it's possible that all of H2's technical, economic, and environmental problems will be solved. But what sane person would put all their eggs into a basket that requires a few technological miracles to ever become a practical reality? The probability of all these challenges being resolved is rather low.
What's happened here is lobbyists have worked to get the incentives boosted for the technology least likely to be successful. Sensible for Toyota... not terribly sensible for the California taxpayers.
LOL!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think he is disagreeing, not agreeing with you. I could show some examples: the Mirai uses a 1.6kWh, 245V Nimh battery. They have a voltage booster that boosts the fuel cell output up to 650V (the inverter like the Prius one also does this for the battery voltage). This type of battery has absolutely nothing to do with a battery that is suitable for BEV usage. It also lacks an onboard charger (another important part of a EV). So it is missing development of the two core components of a BEV. You might or might not be able to share the inverter and motors, but that is true of hybrids with BEVs too.
Basically I think he is saying (and I agree) that developing FCVs (and hybrids) do not give you advantage in building a successful BEV (or even understanding what it takes to do so). Here's an article that illustrates that point (Toyota thinking their hybrid battery experience makes them an "expert" in batteries in general, when they are completely out of touch in terms of BEV battery development):
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...e-it-has-more-experience-than-any-other-maker
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
And that is no surprise, given that the Mirai is a terrible looking car, even for a Toyota. It's really a stark contrast to the Honda FCX Clarity, which had people lining up to lease. Unfortunately, Honda didn't really seem interested in building more than a few dozen of those.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Part of that animosity is brought on from Toyota. They continue to have a corporate line that EVs will never be viable for longer range cars (and the RAV4 EV is included as an "un-viable" car), and that only hydrogen will. It is no surprise RAV4 EV drivers push back against Toyota in terms of this point. Toyota is directly setting up hydrogen and EVs as enemies. If Toyota said both were viable and that they are just experimenting with hydrogen right now (like Nissan is saying) there would be less push back from BEV fans.
I'm aware of that. But there are three pieces to a viable EV - drive motors/inverters, accessories, and battery. Two of these are the same in an FCEV. The third is not...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
You are missing the 4th: the onboard charger. So that is two out of four: battery and onboard charger (plus DC charging architecture) are not shared. And the parts that are shared (or rather potentially can be shared) are also in hybrids.
Also, his main point was that the drive motors/inverters (and accessories) are also in a hybrid, and very few people would agree to the claim that building a good hybrid means you can build a good EV. In fact, according to Toyota, the Mirai just lifted the motor from the Lexus hybrids and the inverter is a modified inverter from a Prius.
http://www.toyota.com/mirai/fcv.html
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Incredulocious
LEAF → RAV4EV → Model 3 → Model Y
Oh yes, and I would agree with you about the rough handling of Bruin Nut's enthusiasm to the Mirai. However, I wouldn't pull punches just yet towards companies or organizations (like California's Air Resources Board) pushing hydrogen.
Toyota is absolutely another GM wrt entrenched mind sets and resistance to change. It is the biggest car company in the world, so why wouldn't they arrogantly try to protect their turf? Toyota has a positive brand image in the U.S. due to their historic take down of the big three U.S. automakers who had forgotten how to build good quality cars. But Toyota is now as big and bloated as the big three were and making the same kind of strategic mistakes.
It doesn't help with the battery and chargers, but it certainly helps with manufacturing. If a company wants to manufacture a BEV, yes, they're going to need chargers and batteries, but an HFCV needs full-power motors and power electronics.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's only if all "full-power" inverters and motors were built the same. It depends on which approach they take.
Toyota chose an approach where they just drop in their system from their hybrids, where there is a lower voltage 245V battery and a boost converter to boost voltage up to that needed by the motor, which is the "stupid" situation Saghost describes of putting a DC-DC converter between the battery and motor. The motor operates at 650V like the Prius one.
This is different from how most BEVs operate, which has a higher voltage pack (300V+), and the motors are designed to operate within the pack voltage range without need for DC-DC conversion (for example the Leaf's motor is designed for 240-403V, exactly the same as the pack's voltage range). So you aren't building a drivetrain that is optimized for BEV applications and not a drop in replacement between the two.
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1281167
Honda took a different approach. They took the motor they used in the Honda EV Plus and updated it for the Clarity, which then updated and was subsequently put in the Fit EV. In this case, that development would help them a bit on motors and inverters.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/motor.aspx
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I thought that I would post this here, since there was considerable discussion of the Mirai styling. There have been some shots of the new 2016 Prius coming out. And apparently, the Prius design is more Mirai-like. Should be interesting to see how the sales of this go, especially with gas being so much cheaper now than a couple years ago:
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
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