Just following up with a poll from a Prius Fanboy site. This does not bode well for the Mirai like future of the next gen Toyota family. The back even looks worse when viewed from directly behind. This is from a Fanboy site mind you...
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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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dhanson865
Well-Known Member
The whole car is like they tried too hard to make it look aggressive. Lots of the new Toyota grills look like growling frowns on angry cars.
But then I don't care much how they look since they don't do pure EVs. To me Toyota lost relevance when the Gen III Prius came out and the plug in version was still compliance only (primarily sold in California and maybe a few other states that are compliance car tag alongs). Gen III prius was 2010 MY and Plug in Prius started 2012 MY.
About the same time (2011/2012) Nissan Leaf was taking the place of the Prius as the most economical cost per mile car to get (for those of us with cheap electricity, I'm currently looking at ~10 cents/kwh).
I figure gas has to drop to about 60 cents a gallon and look like it is going to continue dropping in price before I look at the Prius again (I have a 2005 Prius that I'm keeping for now and hardly using but will sell someday when I get my next newer car).
I can't imagine how cheap hydrogen would have to be for me to ever bother, it'd have to be practically free, literally making my cost per mile less than a tenth of a cent and be just as reliable as an EV and just as cheap as a similarly sized/functionality EV.
I'm happy plugging my car with the EVSE / 14-50 I have in my garage or whatever charging method I have to use at work. It's gotta beat the cost per mile of my current EV and any future cheaper EV before I'd consider going back to a liquid or gaseous fuel.
I post there...but I also post here. I guess that makes me a burgeoning Tesla fanboy and fading Prius fanboy.
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dauger
Member
Back to the Mirai...
First the good news: In the last 4 months (May-August) there were 7 FCEV's that applied for the California state rebate.
Now the bad news: 6 were Hyundia's and one was a Honda.
Apparently the flood of Mirai's is still building up :tongue:
First the good news: In the last 4 months (May-August) there were 7 FCEV's that applied for the California state rebate.
Now the bad news: 6 were Hyundia's and one was a Honda.
Apparently the flood of Mirai's is still building up :tongue:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Do note that the Mirai does not start deliveries until December, so we won't be hearing about them for a while.
tonybelding
Active Member
I was just looking at a Fool article. . . Why Toyota's Hydrogen Car Should Worry Tesla Motors Investors -- The Motley Fool
What really amuses me is the last couple of paragraphs at the end of the article. quote: "It may well turn out that Toyota has made a bad bet here. If it were almost any other automaker -- almost any other company -- it would be tempting to just laugh and dismiss the idea. But this isn't any other company. It's Toyota. Betting against Toyota when it comes to green-car technology should give any thoughtful investor pause."
Hydrogen is not as efficient as battery storage? Not a problem, because TOYOTA!
Hydrogen needs a vast infrastructure created and maintained to produce, store and distribute the stuff? This obstacle can be easily overcome because TOYOTA!
You can't fuel your hydrogen car conveniently at home? That's OK, because TOYOTA!
And we all know that gigantic corporations like Toyota (or Atari, or Kodak, or Nokia, or Pan Am) can't make strategic blunders.
What really amuses me is the last couple of paragraphs at the end of the article. quote: "It may well turn out that Toyota has made a bad bet here. If it were almost any other automaker -- almost any other company -- it would be tempting to just laugh and dismiss the idea. But this isn't any other company. It's Toyota. Betting against Toyota when it comes to green-car technology should give any thoughtful investor pause."
Hydrogen is not as efficient as battery storage? Not a problem, because TOYOTA!
Hydrogen needs a vast infrastructure created and maintained to produce, store and distribute the stuff? This obstacle can be easily overcome because TOYOTA!
You can't fuel your hydrogen car conveniently at home? That's OK, because TOYOTA!
And we all know that gigantic corporations like Toyota (or Atari, or Kodak, or Nokia, or Pan Am) can't make strategic blunders.
Zarwin
Member
Just this week I was thinking that 5 years ago I would never have thought Toyota could possibly follow the business model of Kodak, and I still don't see them going full Kodak, but wow, they seem to be aggressively trying to go that route. It is a little different, but fundamentally similar. Putting vast resources into producing products that people will be less likely to buy in the coming years. Now they have a phenomenal product, the Prius, but they figured out how to deal with that one's success, double down on the ugly to try to taper off sales. I can't imagine anyone looking that the Mirai or the new Prius and saying, "yes, that's a good looking car". I also never thought something as stupid as the "Snuggie" would catch on, so who knows.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
The article also fails to mention that Toyota is only going to build 5000 world-wide by the end of 2017. That the ~5 min refueling time is highly variable, and the stations don't appear to be particularly reliable. Also, that the costs of producing FCs only comes down through volume, and to even get below $300/kWh they'd have to be producing around 20,000 a year.
One other tidbit that gets thrown around, without qualification, is that Toyota has already sold the first 1500 Mirais...but at least 60% of those have been sold to the Japanese Govt., and other Corp. fleets.
Hydrogen may become competitive with BEVs, but the Mirai is no threat to Tesla, as it will take huge investments from Govt.'s or Manufacturers, and it will take years.
dauger
Member
Our household also has a Plug-In Prius my wife drives; as a result I'm on Toyota's marketing list. So they sent me an invite to test drive a Mirai. This is the latest Mirai marketing I'm aware of.
Although I'm amused by the irony, I also strongly disagree with every piece of marketing hype here. Nevertheless, I'm curious to know what their marketing pitch is, so should I go? Driving up in my S might start the conversation a weird way, and I'd be so tempted to speak my mind about how stupid Toyota's Hydrogen gambit is and how their propagating ignorance of the alternatives is disingenuous and counterproductive. I'm not crashing the party because the invite is really in my name.
Although I'm amused by the irony, I also strongly disagree with every piece of marketing hype here. Nevertheless, I'm curious to know what their marketing pitch is, so should I go? Driving up in my S might start the conversation a weird way, and I'd be so tempted to speak my mind about how stupid Toyota's Hydrogen gambit is and how their propagating ignorance of the alternatives is disingenuous and counterproductive. I'm not crashing the party because the invite is really in my name.
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Dauger,
Please let us know how the test drive goes, especially your thoughts in comparison to the Model S. I didn't see when the test drive was going to be. When is it?
It might be best to "play dumb" so to speak, just to see how they are pitching it to the common man. No point riling up the worker bees. :smile:
RT
Please let us know how the test drive goes, especially your thoughts in comparison to the Model S. I didn't see when the test drive was going to be. When is it?
It might be best to "play dumb" so to speak, just to see how they are pitching it to the common man. No point riling up the worker bees. :smile:
RT
cpa
Active Member
This segment was on "Science Friday" today on NPR
http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/25/2015/will-hydrogen-fuel-cell-and-electric-cars-drive-us-into-the-future.html
One of the commentators was a VP (I believe) from Toyota extolling fuel cell technology.
http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/25/2015/will-hydrogen-fuel-cell-and-electric-cars-drive-us-into-the-future.html
One of the commentators was a VP (I believe) from Toyota extolling fuel cell technology.
I listened to that Science Friday episode earlier today. It was very disappointing how the Toyota guy was able to just say whatever he wanted with almost no pushback. He was just spouting the Toyota marketing mumbo-jumbo line about fuel cells and making no sense. The show host should have done some homework and been able to ask good questions but unfortunately he did not. The other guy on the show had written some book about the future of cars and was able to make a few decent points but was to deferential to Toyota, in my opinion.
@dauger, I think you should go to that Mirai demo and take a drive. Definitely go there in your Tesla. I think you will find the acceleration of the Toyota FCV is pathetic compared to your model S. And maybe you can explain to the Toyota people there how ridiculous the FCV idea is.
My understanding is that Toyota will only be selling 700 Mirai's over the next few years! Meanwhile, Tesla will be building hundreds of thousands of EV's and expanding the supercharger network. In a few years it will be obvious to everyone, except maybe the head of Toyota, that the FCV is a dead-end.
I would love to get an invite to a Mirai test drive, show up in my Tesla, drive the Mirai, and then explain to the Toyota people what a foolish product it is.
My understanding is that Toyota will only be selling 700 Mirai's over the next few years! Meanwhile, Tesla will be building hundreds of thousands of EV's and expanding the supercharger network. In a few years it will be obvious to everyone, except maybe the head of Toyota, that the FCV is a dead-end.
I would love to get an invite to a Mirai test drive, show up in my Tesla, drive the Mirai, and then explain to the Toyota people what a foolish product it is.
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LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
@Dauger. I'd love to see a Mirai review from an MS owner, Toyota is in the process of making one of the biggest strategic errors in corporate history.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
The whole "Hydrogen is Everywhere" statement is so misleading. It's like saying "Money is Everywhere", without also noting that it's in someone else's pocket, and really difficult to coax out.
Yes, that statement is incredibly misleading. Sure hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. But the energy required to free it from its bound state to other elements is significant, then you have to compress it in special containers, transport it, put it in another container, then pump it into another container in an FCV, the pass it through a fuel cell to finally make electricity, and then use it to power a motor.
As opposed to, for example, creating electricity in solar panels on your roof and then moving it through a few feet or wiring and some electrical components before storing it in a battery and powering a motor. Or simply plugging your EV into your wall outlet and drawing from the grid.
Hmm..which makes more sense...
As opposed to, for example, creating electricity in solar panels on your roof and then moving it through a few feet or wiring and some electrical components before storing it in a battery and powering a motor. Or simply plugging your EV into your wall outlet and drawing from the grid.
Hmm..which makes more sense...
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I've been actively courting Toyota Norway for this reason - to write an honest review blog, "living with the Mirai" from the perspective of someone who loves new technology and have owned several BEVs. So far no results, I've even said I'd consider buying one but would prefer leasing of course.
green1
Active Member
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