Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan

[dhanson865]

It wouldn't be much use, though, without a bigger battery. Even if the entire 1.6 kWh battery is available, that's only 3-6 miles.

queue next response on why I wouldn't buy one.

If it doesn't even have a battery equal to a 2011 Nissan Leaf they aren't even trying. It should be at least 20 kWh + hydrogen and be a plug in and that is only if hydrogen became cheaper than gas or pure EV somehow.

 

[RiverBrick]

California is still planning to waste 200 million on building hydrogen stations, right? Is it just taking them more time to burn the cash or has someone come to their senses?

 

[green1]

For the purposes of the ZEV credits it doesn't matter. The latest version of the rules has an explicit exemption for hydrogen vehicles. They can get the full credit even if no such station exists. Of course the rule only lasts until 2017, so it'll be over pretty soon anyways.

Do you really believe their lobbying efforts won't be sufficient to extend this beyong 2017? "you underestimate the power of the dark side"...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Do you really believe their lobbying efforts won't be sufficient to extend this beyong 2017? "you underestimate the power of the dark side"...

Good point. I forgot that CARB is easily subject to lobbying. We'll see what happens by the time the fast refueling credit bonus expires.

 

[dauger]

Toyota asks dealerships to stop deliveries of Mirai:

Toyota To Select Dealers: Stop Delivering The Mirai, There Is Nowhere To Refuel - Inside EVs

Toyota Tells Dealers: Stop Mirai Deliveries! - Gas 2

Toyota Limits 2016 Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Sedan Deliveries Due To Slow Infrastructure Rollout | Transport Evolved

Toyota Asks Some Of CA's 8 Mirai Dealers To Hold Off Deliveries

Funny to see how Hydrogen fuel news soft-pedals it:

Toyota delays deliveries of its hydrogen fuel cell vehicleHydrogen Fuel News

Seems like another dent in FCVs' reputation. When is Toyota going to figure out it's easier to comply with ZEV requirements using BEVs?

Maybe someone could parody the Anti-BEV ads from Lexus/Toyota, applied to the Mirai's current woes:

Lexus Anti-EV Ad Lives On

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

queue next response on why I wouldn't buy one.

If it doesn't even have a battery equal to a 2011 Nissan Leaf they aren't even trying. It should be at least 20 kWh + hydrogen and be a plug in and that is only if hydrogen became cheaper than gas or pure EV somehow.

Car cannot serve both cell and plug-in. It's a packaging and cost issue.

if at some point in the future fuel cells were to improve, but the hydrogen fueling remained a problem then HFCPHEV could work.

It's not a surprise on the Mirai delays and it's the biggest problem there is.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Car cannot serve both cell and plug-in. It's a packaging and cost issue.

if at some point in the future fuel cells were to improve, but the hydrogen fueling remained a problem then HFCPHEV could work.

It's not a surprise on the Mirai delays and it's the biggest problem there is.

If the fueling infrastructure is still a problem, then an FCPHEV would only make it worse. If they design a vehicle that can do even 70% of its driving without the need for H2, no one is going to build the stations necessary to allow cross-country driving because demand would be sporadic at best. The stations cost too much to build, too much to maintain, and (unless there is high demand for H2) the fuel will continue to be prohibitively expensive.

Hydrogen only works if people are entirely dependent on it. Remove dependence, and the entire concept falls apart.

 

[flankspeed8]

...no one is going to build the stations necessary to allow cross-country driving because demand would be sporadic at best. The stations cost too much to build, too much to maintain, and (unless there is high demand for H2) the fuel will continue to be prohibitively expensive.

Where outside California is anyone really building h2 stations? IMO the Mirai will never be a long range vehicle because there is going to be a dearth of stations for decades. At least with EV's you can get your fill up each morning in your garage or hotel. Not so with FCEV.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Where outside California is anyone really building h2 stations? IMO the Mirai will never be a long range vehicle because there is going to be a dearth of stations for decades. At least with EV's you can get your fill up each morning in your garage or hotel. Not so with FCEV.

No where. There is zero incentive to do so. I think South Carolina has one station, so the E/SE coast could hold some potential...but that hardly helps anyone in between.

The whole situation is just absurd. CA is wasting obscene amounts of public funding...

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

The whole situation is just absurd. CA is wasting obscene amounts of public funding...

This is what p**ses me OFF! Why is CA spending such a disproportionate amount of funding to build this H2 infrastructure at the behest of a $200 Billion foreign automaker?! :cursing:

Edit: I say "disproportionate", because the L2 chargers received only about 1% of the funding, and those stations at least got used!

 

[nwdiver]

Available soon at your local Toyota dealership :wink:

 

[McRat]

Well, we already have a crappy propane motor fuel network, a crappy CNG network, a crappy E85 network, and a crappy biodiesel network. You'd think they would have learned already, but nooooo.

What's one more unused crappy fueling network? A bureaucrat must spend his budget or get it cut down for the next year. Not to mention the "perks" of being courted by the industrial special interests.

We have electricity virtually everywhere. It's transportation system is place. Just need dispensers. If you can use 120vac to do your charging, there are more "filling stations" for EV's than gas stations. And the L2 and DCFC is increasing daily.

 

[flankspeed8]

It is really quite striking how little buzz there is around the Mirai...Its almost like it doesn't exist :tongue:

 

[RobStark]

In the UK the Mirai starts at 60k British Pounds.

Model S70 starts at 53.6k British Pounds and qualifies for the 5k Pound government subsidy.

The Mirai does not.

 

[vinnie97]

At least the Prius IV launch is preoccupying Toyota from fiddling with their hapless H2 launch failure.

 

[wws]

It is really quite striking how little buzz there is around the Mirai...Its almost like it doesn't exist :tongue:

Spotted one in the wild today. Driving in the HOV lane on 101 near Palo Alto. Looks like the same design team that styled it did the 2016 Prius... (Saw one of those in the wild a few days ago.)

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Spotted one in the wild today. Driving in the HOV lane on 101 near Palo Alto. Looks like the same design team that styled it did the 2016 Prius... (Saw one of those in the wild a few days ago.)

Was probably on his way back to the dealership to get another 50% fill.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

If the fueling infrastructure is still a problem, then an FCPHEV would only make it worse. If they design a vehicle that can do even 70% of its driving without the need for H2, no one is going to build the stations necessary to allow cross-country driving because demand would be sporadic at best. The stations cost too much to build, too much to maintain, and (unless there is high demand for H2) the fuel will continue to be prohibitively expensive.

Hydrogen only works if people are entirely dependent on it. Remove dependence, and the entire concept falls apart.

I think of it the other way. Imagine an HFC Volt. 53 AER, 90% of miles on EV. What would people need from H2? They'd just need something like the Supercharger network, set up on highways, although closer to cities, rather than splitting. Not needing local filling stations makes it much easier to build a complete network, as Tesla is showing. HFCVs have to replace the gas station, which means a lot of chicken and egg.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think of it the other way. Imagine an HFC Volt. 53 AER, 90% of miles on EV. What would people need from H2? They'd just need something like the Supercharger network, set up on highways, although closer to cities, rather than splitting. Not needing local filling stations makes it much easier to build a complete network, as Tesla is showing. HFCVs have to replace the gas station, which means a lot of chicken and egg.

The problem is you need 10x the amount of vehicles to create enough demand under that scenario, given most of the hydrogen driving is offset by the EV mode. Tesla is operating a "free" station (actually prepaid) so having less demand is a good thing, but it is the opposite for a hydrogen station owner.

 

[flankspeed8]

Poor Toyota! The minimal press they are getting is because dealers are having to hold back on the limited deliveries they are making because of the h2 infrastructure which is not going to be fixed soon. Meanwhile, Tesla is going to get tons of free press over the M3 reveal and GM is over the Bolt.

Will they have the humility to throw in the towel on this fuel cell folly or is myopia going to keep them driving down the slow lane to obsolescence? Where is the real fuel cell demand? It just isn't there.