Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP

[Redhill_qik]

After reading this thread diligently as it emerged, I was preparing myself for a challenge when the first B&W bill arrived.

OMG! You folks aren't kidding.

You need a double Ph.D. in nuclear string theory and economics to get through it. Is there a hidden acronym table somewhere to translate the "VCP*VCP*T*T" entries?

All the best,

BG

I think you are screwing with those of us that have tried to decipher these as VCP*VCP*T*T likely doesn't exist. Did you mashup VPC*VPC*CCA and TRANS*T*T?

Most the short hand means something to programmers and analysts from commercial generators, but to the residential user it is just noise from duplicate reporting and breakdowns of breakdowns. You can find out what these related to by searching in the document for the individual component like VPC to see that is the CCA PCIA charge or the amount to find where this is used elsewhere.

IMHO, this is what matters:

• First page summary
  • Minimum Daily Charges (MDCs)
  • Non-Bypassable Charges (NBCs)
  • Current Month Energy Charge or Credit
• Second page
  • TRUE-UP HISTORY SUMMARY table
• Third Page
  • BILLING TOU ENERGY table - Breakdowns imports/exports by TOU period and tariff rate periods

 

[BGbreeder]

@Redhill_qik Yes, just messing with you on the VPC*VPC*T*T (my bad), but in all seriousness, would it kill them to include the definitions? There is enough blank space...

 

[holeydonut]

@Redhill_qik Yes, just messing with you on the VPC*VPC*T*T (my bad), but in all seriousness, would it kill them to include the definitions? There is enough blank space...

Lol imagine what the B&W bill will look like under NEM 3.0.

 

[RKCRLR]

Lol imagine what the B&W bill will look like under NEM 3.0.

View attachment 752058

And they would give you the phone number so you can cross reverence....

 

[holeydonut]

Man, I give up trying to understand this black and white bill. You all with your goddamn PhD's in advanced math seem to make sense of this, but my latest black and white bill ending Jan 10 is total trash.

As @miimura pointed out, PG&E increased rates on December 1, 2021, which caused the unbundled rates to take on a new life of their own and ballooned the size of the bill. But it appears PG&E raised rates again on Jan 1, 2022. Things like peak distribution and transmission went up $0.01 per kWh. Which on paper seems innocuous enough, until you realize $0.02 increase for those two items is a 9% increase. And this is in addition to the ~2% increase they made effective December 1, 2021.

Edit:
Here's off-peak distribution and transmission per my B&W bills. This is a 26% increase for these two line items alone.
12/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.03731
12/1 DIST per kWh = $0.03414
1/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.04787
1/1 DIST per kWh = $0.04199

So my bill is now 16 pages of absolute complete rubbish. The unbundled "RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CHARGES" section now spans 3 pages and I can't get the cross multiply of the kWh against these unbundled rates to equal whatever the hell they're billing on the main page.

I don't understand how any of you all actually successful having a 100% "sized to usage" solar array offset all the credits and imports for NEM.

PG&E literally gets to dial up the cost of imports in the Winter which makes it so you would have had to export an extra ~10% just to offset the energy import costs experienced when you draw against NEM. Plus, all those TOU bullsh!ts means you needed to generate another 15% percent during off-peak to offset the peak time cost differential on your imports.

How is anyone not named @h2ofun actually achieving what Zabe thinks is happening where your annual NEM 2.0 exports - imports nets to zero?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Man, I give up trying to understand this black and white bill. You all with your goddamn PhD's in advanced math seem to make sense of this, but my latest black and white bill ending Jan 10 is total trash.

As @miimura pointed out, PG&E increased rates on December 1, 2021, which caused the unbundled rates to take on a new life of their own and ballooned the size of the bill. But it appears PG&E raised rates again on Jan 1, 2022. Things like peak distribution and transmission went up $0.01 per kWh. Which on paper seems innocuous enough, until you realize $0.02 increase for those two items is a 9% increase. And this is in addition to the ~2% increase they made effective December 1, 2021.

Edit:
Here's off-peak distribution and transmission per my B&W bills. This is a 26% increase for these two line items alone.
12/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.03731
12/1 DIST per kWh = $0.03414
1/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.04787
1/1 DIST per kWh = $0.04199

So my bill is now 16 pages of absolute complete rubbish. The unbundled "RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CHARGES" section now spans 3 pages and I can't get the cross multiply of the kWh against these unbundled rates to equal whatever the hell they're billing on the main page.

I don't understand how any of you all actually successful having a 100% "sized to usage" solar array offset all the credits and imports for NEM.

PG&E literally gets to dial up the cost of imports in the Winter which makes it so you would have had to export an extra ~10% just to offset the energy import costs experienced when you draw against NEM. Plus, all those TOU bullsh!ts means you needed to generate another 15% percent during off-peak to offset the peak time cost differential on your imports.

How is anyone not named @h2ofun actually achieving what Zabe thinks is happening where your annual NEM 2.0 exports - imports nets to zero?

The black bills have a lot of variation depending on if you are pure-PGE or with a CCA and there might be other differences between NEM-PS versus NEM-MT that I'm not aware of as I have only seen my NEM-PS bills. Trying to reconcile the bill when the tariff rate changes during the billing period adds more complications. I am willing to go through your black bill if you want to send them to me (not sure if a direct message supports attachments or not) the original PDF would be best, but if you are privacy conscious and want to take screen shots and black out your Personally Identifiable Information (PII) that's fine.

On the netting out to zero, my first annual true-up in November was at negative for both kWh and charges and my monthly NBCs were all less than the monthly MDCs, so PG&E zero'ed out my credits and that was that. I'm with a CCA that has an April true-up, this was for only 6 months and they sent me a check for the $111.48 in June, with a full year I'm expecting around $325. Next year will be a lot less as they are lowering to 200% of PG&E wholesale. My system was oversized as I plan on adding electric (hybrid water heater already done).

 

[getakey]

I don't think you have to be so precise in netting to zero. My first solar year without PWs, my true-up was ~200. I added PWs and was aggressive on rate arbitrage resulting in true-up of -$850. So now, I set my reserve much higher and only rate arbitrage from 5pm to 7pm. Looks like I'm on course for about zero NEM

 

[holeydonut]

I guess the CCA stuff is adding complexity here. Although at first blush my CCA should simply reduce complexity since the unbundled generation is missing from this B&W bill (the CCA has a separate NEM picked up on the blue-header bill). Seeing these unbundled rates on imports shoot up ~10% in total aggregate effective Jan 1 is annoying. I don't generate much in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb. I've even been using peak energy from the Grid since I can't charge my Powerwalls on cloudy days. Ugh.

So yeah this is super annoying to read comments from the IOU proponents about "NEM 2.0 being too much of a subsidy". PG&E wouldn't let me oversize my array and strictly enforced the 110% cap even though I previously did not have an EV and now have a Tesla in 2021. I think you two are not the "normal" solar customer... you seem to be net producers.

But I'm running the math and for a full year (March to March), I'm going to be at a deficit on NEM for the true up primarily because:

1) The imports costing +10% in the winter months has become more costly than the NEM credits I exported during the Summer seasons.
2) The peak-time imports I need because I cannot grid-charge the Powerwalls is adding a huge amount to my daily wintertime burden.

Super annoying that PG&E snuck in #1. And PG&E enforces #2 per NEM2-MT. I hate PG&E... they are getting their stupid-ass fixed costs from me even though I tried really hard to be the "solar jerk" that the NEM 3 advocates think apply to all solar customers. It's not that I want to profit as a net generator. I just wanted to be a net zero on the annual NEM cycles.

I tried to spend to actually use the bloody grid as little as possible and the IOU literally craps on my effort. And then I have to hear IOU proponents and PG&E lineman tell me I'm not paying my "fair share" of the stupid grid. Eff the IOU's.

 

[h2ofun]

Man, I give up trying to understand this black and white bill. You all with your goddamn PhD's in advanced math seem to make sense of this, but my latest black and white bill ending Jan 10 is total trash.

As @miimura pointed out, PG&E increased rates on December 1, 2021, which caused the unbundled rates to take on a new life of their own and ballooned the size of the bill. But it appears PG&E raised rates again on Jan 1, 2022. Things like peak distribution and transmission went up $0.01 per kWh. Which on paper seems innocuous enough, until you realize $0.02 increase for those two items is a 9% increase. And this is in addition to the ~2% increase they made effective December 1, 2021.

Edit:
Here's off-peak distribution and transmission per my B&W bills. This is a 26% increase for these two line items alone.
12/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.03731
12/1 DIST per kWh = $0.03414
1/1 TRANS per kWh = $0.04787
1/1 DIST per kWh = $0.04199

So my bill is now 16 pages of absolute complete rubbish. The unbundled "RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CHARGES" section now spans 3 pages and I can't get the cross multiply of the kWh against these unbundled rates to equal whatever the hell they're billing on the main page.

I don't understand how any of you all actually successful having a 100% "sized to usage" solar array offset all the credits and imports for NEM.

PG&E literally gets to dial up the cost of imports in the Winter which makes it so you would have had to export an extra ~10% just to offset the energy import costs experienced when you draw against NEM. Plus, all those TOU bullsh!ts means you needed to generate another 15% percent during off-peak to offset the peak time cost differential on your imports.

How is anyone not named @h2ofun actually achieving what Zabe thinks is happening where your annual NEM 2.0 exports - imports nets to zero?

My mas credit got to 3200. I am at 3000 now, and will see what the bill is tomorrow.

 

[miimura]

I guess the CCA stuff is adding complexity here. Although at first blush my CCA should simply reduce complexity since the unbundled generation is missing from this B&W bill (the CCA has a separate NEM picked up on the blue-header bill). Seeing these unbundled rates on imports shoot up ~10% in total aggregate effective Jan 1 is annoying. I don't generate much in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb. I've even been using peak energy from the Grid since I can't charge my Powerwalls on cloudy days. Ugh.

So yeah this is super annoying to read comments from the IOU proponents about "NEM 2.0 being too much of a subsidy". PG&E wouldn't let me oversize my array and strictly enforced the 110% cap even though I previously did not have an EV and now have a Tesla in 2021. I think you two are not the "normal" solar customer... you seem to be net producers.

But I'm running the math and for a full year (March to March), I'm going to be at a deficit on NEM for the true up primarily because:

1) The imports costing +10% in the winter months has become more costly than the NEM credits I exported during the Summer seasons.
2) The peak-time imports I need because I cannot grid-charge the Powerwalls is adding a huge amount to my daily wintertime burden.

Super annoying that PG&E snuck in #1. And PG&E enforces #2 per NEM2-MT. I hate PG&E... they are getting their stupid-ass fixed costs from me even though I tried really hard to be the "solar jerk" that the NEM 3 advocates think apply to all solar customers. It's not that I want to profit as a net generator. I just wanted to be a net zero on the annual NEM cycles.

I tried to spend to actually use the bloody grid as little as possible and the IOU literally craps on my effort. And then I have to hear IOU proponents and PG&E lineman tell me I'm not paying my "fair share" of the stupid grid. Eff the IOU's.

PG&E is not enforcing #2. The NEM-PS billing ensures that you don't export more than your estimated generation. Given some batteries completely under your control, you could easily charge during Off-Peak and discharge to zero out your Peak consumption, independent of your solar generation.

 

[holeydonut]

PG&E is not enforcing #2. The NEM-PS billing ensures that you don't export more than your estimated generation. Given some batteries completely under your control, you could easily charge during Off-Peak and discharge to zero out your Peak consumption, independent of your solar generation.

My NEM2-MT form required me to attest that I would not grid charge. And PG&E can request export from Tesla proving I did/not circumvent this policy.

 

[miimura]

My NEM2-MT form required me to attest that I would not grid charge. And PG&E can request export from Tesla proving I did/not circumvent this policy.

You have 3 or more PWs, right? I am NEM-PS with 2 PWs and don't have that restriction. I just have the tax credit restriction. If I were to reduce my Winter Peak, I would probably use a separate battery.

 

[holeydonut]

You have 3 or more PWs, right? I am NEM-PS with 2 PWs and don't have that restriction. I just have the tax credit restriction. If I were to reduce my Winter Peak, I would probably use a separate battery.

Yeah, PG&E seems hellbent on screwing with me. I’m also forced to EV2A since they denied my original 2 PW system and I had to sneak in a third battery under SGIP to go whole home backup. You cannot use E-TOU-C with large scale SGIP.

 

[ellielo]

I am never able to understand my bills to be honest. Only once i had a weird amount on it and found american electric power phone number. I called them and they explained to me everything in a simple words.

 

[qlin]

Just got my first 2 Detailed NEMPS Bill, couple of caveat found. and i kind of see PGE is sneering at me.

my usage: Period1 24days, period2 5 days.
period1: peak 58, gen 0
off 108, gen 30
period2: peak 23, gen 0
off 33 , gen 65


first ,the NEM2PS plan is supposed to be ETOUC based, and, it is also TIERED, but what shock me the most is the base line credit.
from Dec-Jan Period2, i generated more than i pulled from grid so i see a negtive base line usage ( 23+33-65)= -9 KWH,
Given the rate -$0.08 is negtive, since it's supposed to be a credit or deduction from my total bill amount, so it end up to be a positive number and a charge towards my Trueup amount

that means in the summer when i gen way more than i use, i will technically pay $0.08 per KWH i send to grid while the GEN credit is just $0.1, that almost forfeit all the GEN credit i will get for extra energy i send back, considering i still need to pay $0.025 per KWH non-bypassalbe charge.

i really hope i am wrong? it's totally insane if it's true.

 

[RKCRLR]

If you have a monthly baseline it will be deducted from the power you feed to the grid. If you use more than you provide then you will still come out ahead with respect to the baseline credit. But, yes, providing more power than you use will negate the baseline rate.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Just got my first 2 Detailed NEMPS Bill, couple of caveat found. and i kind of see PGE is sneering at me.

my usage: Period1 24days, period2 5 days.
period1: peak 58, gen 0
off 108, gen 30
period2: peak 23, gen 0
off 33 , gen 65


first ,the NEM2PS plan is supposed to be ETOUC based, and, it is also TIERED, but what shock me the most is the base line credit.
from Dec-Jan Period2, i generated more than i pulled from grid so i see a negtive base line usage ( 23+33-65)= -9 KWH,
Given the rate -$0.08 is negtive, since it's supposed to be a credit or deduction from my total bill amount, so it end up to be a positive number and a charge towards my Trueup amount

that means in the summer when i gen way more than i use, i will technically pay $0.08 per KWH i send to grid while the GEN credit is just $0.1, that almost forfeit all the GEN credit i will get for extra energy i send back, considering i still need to pay $0.025 per KWH non-bypassalbe charge.

i really hope i am wrong? it's totally insane if it's true.

I'm also on E-TOU-C and was surprised when I first saw this, but after thinking about it concluded that it makes sense. The credit for exporting is reduced by this baseline number as is the charge for importing, so it offsets at 100%.

If you are net generator at your annual true-up, the energy charges are zero and you get only the wholesale PG&E rate for your excess kWH (unless you are with a CCA then you usually get more).

 

[Redhill_qik]

that means in the summer when i gen way more than i use, i will technically pay $0.08 per KWH i send to grid while the GEN credit is just $0.1, that almost forfeit all the GEN credit i will get for extra energy i send back, considering i still need to pay $0.025 per KWH non-bypassalbe charge.

i really hope i am wrong? it's totally insane if it's true.

I'm not sure where you got the "GEN credit is just $0.1", but I'm thinking that you are seeing an entry in the "RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CHARGES" section that is labelled GEN, but that is only one of many sub-charges that are TOU based. The full E-TOUC- in tariff rates in December was

• Peak - $0.32398
• Off-Peak - $0.30665

If you use less than the baseline amounts then there was a credit $0.07605 that makes the rates effectively

• Peak - $0.24793
• Off-Peak - $0.23060

Since the baseline credit is independent of the TOU or maybe because it is a credit instead of a charge , it is broken out in the separate "BASELINE CREDIT" table instead of being included in the "RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CHARGES" section that is TOU, but everything still works out in the end.

In your case, ignoring the different month tariff rates and just using the December rates. You should have a Peak Charge of (58+23)*$0.24793 = $20.08 and Off-Peak Charge of (108+33-30-65)*$0.02306 = $10.61 for a total of $30.69, plus Non-Bypassable Charges of (58+23+108+33)*$0.0225 = $5.00.

 

[qlin]

Thank you @Redhill_qik You are exactly right .
I was confused by the b&w bill but now I think everything adds up.

Actually the rule is quite simple other than some subtle details like how to calculated the prorated usage, just now sure why PGE have to show that much details .
my goal is not to match the exact amount , but just to understand the high level method ,so couple of dollar errors is acceptable… so your calc is same as what I am doing .. thanks for sharing

 

[jmatero]

I had SolarCity installed when we had one plug-in hybrid. Now we have 2 EVs (Model Y and Niro EV) and my true-up bill is almost $2000. I’m on the E1 plan with PGE. is There a better plan I should select?