Unhappy with moderation and personal attacks?

[Doug_G]

One thing that makes this frustrating is that there is never any feedback. No "yep, that was bad, I took care of it", no "come on, she was just kidding", nothing. Sometimes I go back after a day and notice with dismay that the posts are still in place. Sometimes others around them get moved away but the ones that I reported are still there, sometimes hald the thread is gone by the time I check back.
I know (see above) that moderation is hard work. But a mechanism to let a reporter know that the report was seen and evaluated (and for bonus points, how it was evaluated) might motivate more of us to report things. Which in the end hopefully will result in more balanced reporting.
Or maybe I'm making all this too complicated?

ALL reported posts are seen and reviewed by the moderators. I read all of the reports, not just the ones in my section; from what I've seen the other mods do as well. And yes there is discussion about what, if anything, to do about posts. Sometimes that action is do nothing, sometimes it's "keep an eye on this", and probably half the time someone takes immediate action.

My view is that your request nearly doubles the load of the moderators. Not only must they filter through the postings, moving things around, but also try to respond to everyone who reported it (which could be done in bulk, I understand). I like it better not getting anything back - I trust that they've seen my report, and I trust that they're doing their job. It's possible they don't see eye-to-eye with my report, and that's fine.

Yes reporting back would take a large amount of effort, but there are more important reasons. It would in some cases have privacy concerns. We don't want to engage in public discussions about moderation issues. Anything we would send back via PM could be quoted publicly. Our policy is therefore to keep all moderator discussions private.

 

[dirkhh]

Yes reporting back would take a large amount of effort, but there are more important reasons. It would in some cases have privacy concerns. We don't want to engage in public discussions about moderation issues. Anything we would send back via PM could be quoted publicly. Our policy is therefore to keep all moderator discussions private.

Thanks for that explanation. Makes sense.

 

[stace]

In that very first post he does bring up the possibility of him taking legal action against Tesla.

No, he didn't. Here's exactly what he said (with emphasis added by me):

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if others are considering even more drastic tactics, like jumping straight to legal action. I wouldn't blame them, as it's within their rights to do so. I've been pretty frustrated with Tesla regarding a lot of things surrounding the P85D. They're not building a whole lot of good will and credibility here with all of the missteps.

He said others might, not that he would.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

No, he didn't. Here's exactly what he said (with emphasis added by me):



He said others might, not that he would.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

I read the post initially and believe I remember him discussing the possibility of personally using legal action. You'll note the original post has been edited.

EDIT: Actually, here you go:

Essentially, if the car doesn't do a main thing I purchased it for (autopilot for my thousands of miles of summer driving), then, as mentioned previously, I'll most likely consider legal recourse. This is definitely something in the realm of a class action case if pursued, and I'm not against that if needed to press this further at that time.

 

[dsm363]

No, he didn't. Here's exactly what he said (with emphasis added by me):



He said others might, not that he would.

Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

That is right he never said he was definitely going that route. That's kind of a round about way of brining the issue up though. He later did say he would certainly keep that option on the table but wasn't activity looking into it. The point is in the very first post the topic was brought up. No one else did. I'm sure that got Tesla's attention anyway.

 

[dsm363]

I read the post initially and believe I remember him discussing the possibility of personally using legal action. You'll note the original post has been edited.

EDIT: Actually, here you go:

Thanks. That's how I remember it too.

 

[darthy001]

I don't disagree with you about "not turning it up a notch out of frustration."

As for reporting posts in which he was attacked, I'd have to go back through a lot of threads, and to be honest I don't want to take the time. But as one example that jumps to mind, if you look at the thread he started about autopilot being late--this one--

Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

he was attacked pretty regularly. People kept talking about him threatening to sue Tesla when he had not made those threats. If you really would like me to, I'll look through that thread and find some posts that I'd consider attacks later, but I expect if you skim through it a bit you'll see what I mean.

There are posts made since his banning that I think are worse than anything wk057 said yesterday that haven't been moderated away anywhere last time I checked. Posts implying that I'm a moron, posts that tell sorka things like he should admit he's wrong for once in his life, (or something like that.) I'd go find those, and edit this post with them, but then this post might get moved to snippiness when those posts do.

Edit: I just reread your post, and saw that you said "report." Since you asked, I --will-- go find the posts I referred to above, and report those, just so you can see what I'm talking about. (I don't care that much if they get moved or not. My point was that they were more offensive than anything wk057 said yesterday, and were left alone.)

Totally agree. For those of us following many of the same threads as wk057 he was directly or indirectly attacked more or less all the time and simply fought back. I cannot remember him ever throwing the first "punch"...

In my mind at least one of the posters in this thread is much worse and way more rude.. And that on what seems like a daily basis. He/she even is rude towards wk057 in a thread about moderation... I find it puzzling that wk057 gets banned while others are allowed to keep on like this .... The big difference I see is that this other user is extrmely vocal in his/her support of Tesla in all matters... Wk057 of course has been very vocal on several not so positive topics(just as myself).... I find this to be the worst part here....

 

[dirkhh]

Totally agree. For those of us following many of the same threads as wk057 he was directly or indirectly attacked more or less all the time and simply fought back. I cannot remember him ever throwing the first "punch"...

In my mind at least one of the posters in this thread is much worse and way more rude.. And that on what seems like a daily basis. He/she even is rude towards wk057 in a thread about moderation... I find it puzzling that wk057 gets banned while others are allowed to keep on like this .... The big difference I see is that this other user is extrmely vocal in his/her support of Tesla in all matters... Wk057 of course has been very vocal on several not so positive topics(just as myself).... I find this to be the worst part here....

So you seem to be implying that there is a bias amongst the moderators against people who post critical things regarding Tesla.
I doubt that.
I believe that some "true believers" use reporting of posts as a form of censorship, whereas those of us who are more open minded and appreciate different points of view are less likely to report the aggressive pro-Tesla crowd.
An easy way to test this theory is to go back to that thread and systematically report the posts of the person you consider the bad actor who is "way more rude" "on what seems like a daily basis" and see what happens.

 

[hockeythug]

Sorry but I had had a good laugh reading his blog updates and constant revisions.

 

[darthy001]

So you seem to be implying that there is a bias amongst the moderators against people who post critical things regarding Tesla.
I doubt that.
I believe that some "true believers" use reporting of posts as a form of censorship, whereas those of us who are more open minded and appreciate different points of view are less likely to report the aggressive pro-Tesla crowd.
An easy way to test this theory is to go back to that thread and systematically report the posts of the person you consider the bad actor who is "way more rude" "on what seems like a daily basis" and see what happens.

Well, up until now I have never had any reason to imply anything like this as I've been very impressed by the mods way of handling things here. I only have this one case. And from what I've witnessed in these threads wk057 was far from the worst participant.

Might very well be that those opposing him reported him and no one on the other side, like me, reported what we noticed in terms of bad behavior the other way... Personally I never even considered it since my threshold of whats "rude" is way beyond any of this I love a heated argument.

But it actually seems like a plausible explanation. Just sad that moderators doesnt have the time to see through this.

Edit: to mods: would such a retroactive reporting effort as suggested by dirkhh actually be worthwhile? I am not going to do i while on my ipad... But might sacrifice 30minutes of my life in service for wk057s cause...

 

[Canuck]

. But as one example that jumps to mind, if you look at the thread he started about autopilot being late--this one--

Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

he was attacked pretty regularly. People kept talking about him threatening to sue Tesla when he had not made those threats. If you really would like me to, I'll look through that thread and find some posts that I'd consider attacks later, but I expect if you skim through it a bit you'll see what I mean.

Like I said, the legal aspect is a last resort. If come the end of the summer or so and still no indication that autopilot is going to be released and nothing else on the subject from Tesla... then it may be the only avenue to further pursue.

I'm doubting this will happen. I still have some faith that they're actually going to deliver the functionality sometime this summer... but we'll see.

Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery - Page 7

If that's not a threat of legal action, then I don't know what is. When people threaten legal action, they often give other options, such as "do the demand by a certain date. If not, legal action may be the only recourse..." Any lawyer will tell you that's considered a threat of legal action -- and that's exactly what he did.

Plus, this is only one quick example of his threats. I can find more. I also disagree that wk057 was on the defensive. Whenever I challenged him, I did so respectfully, and more than once he replied rudely to me, in the same way he does to others.

Finally, to expect this not to be a forum that comes to the defence of Tesla makes no sense to me. It's a Tesla forum. But to suggest that wk057 was treated unfairly is to completely ignore how rude he became at the end, even posting a reply that he knew was prohibited so he asked the mods to put in the snipppiness thread. How can anyone possibly defend that?:

(Mods, please send this to snippiness since I can't post it there myself.)

 

[AnOutsider]

Edit: to mods: would such a retroactive reporting effort as suggested by dirkhh actually be worthwhile? I am not going to do i while on my ipad... But might sacrifice 30minutes of my life in service for wk057s cause...

Reporting other snippy posts will, at-best, get those posts moved to snippiness. There's no "cause" to support, so please don't go on a rampage reporting posts in hopes it will change a decision that has already been made (with, I might add, more information than is publicly available here).

 

[darthy001]

@canuck the snippiness-post from wk057 hasnt really been defended as far as I've seen, but if you read what has been sent to snippiness in the past that post was just a small blip on the radar in my book at least. I am not defending it, but at the same time that and other similar posts dont bother me either so I might be biased there.

Personally I've noticed some of the back and forth between you and wk057 and havent really considered any of the sides as rude. More a kind of heated discussion over a couple of beers at a pub type discussion. I've had much worse discussions with some of my best friends

Starting to think there are some cultural differences at play here

 

[Doug_G]

Totally agree. For those of us following many of the same threads as wk057 he was directly or indirectly attacked more or less all the time and simply fought back. I cannot remember him ever throwing the first "punch"...

In my mind at least one of the posters in this thread is much worse and way more rude.. And that on what seems like a daily basis. He/she even is rude towards wk057 in a thread about moderation... I find it puzzling that wk057 gets banned while others are allowed to keep on like this .... The big difference I see is that this other user is extrmely vocal in his/her support of Tesla in all matters... Wk057 of course has been very vocal on several not so positive topics(just as myself).... I find this to be the worst part here....

Just to address the implication of bias and singling-out: We have a number of people on temp ban at the moment (pretty sure it's a record number in fact), and wk is just one of them. At least one would be considered a major Tesla fanboy.

Your point of view isn't important. Your delivery is.

Please - if someone is rude to you, report the post and then DO NOT respond in kind. Be polite and let us clean up the mess, instead of helping push the whole thread into a spiral.

 

[dsm363]

@canuck the snippiness-post from wk057 hasnt really been defended as far as I've seen, but if you read what has been sent to snippiness in the past that post was just a small blip on the radar in my book at least. I am not defending it, but at the same time that and other similar posts dont bother me either so I might be biased there.

Personally I've noticed some of the back and forth between you and wk057 and havent really considered any of the sides as rude. More a kind of heated discussion over a couple of beers at a pub type discussion. I've had much worse discussions with some of my best friends

Starting to think there are some cultural differences at play here

Conversations with friends are with people you know. You can say things that if written down would sound horrible and get away with it because they know you are not serious. When you write the same things to strangers on an internet forum they may not go over very well.

 

[darthy001]

Reporting other snippy posts will, at-best, get those posts moved to snippiness. There's no "cause" to support, so please don't go on a rampage reporting posts in hopes it will change a decision that has already been made (with, I might add, more information than is publicly available here).

Hehehe thats what I figured The goal wouldnt have been to vindicate wk057 anyway. This whole thing strangely has ended up mostly irritating me in regards to this other user not being banned. So it would have been more of a leveliling the playing field type action. But point taken.

Have to admit the chance of me actually digging through hundreds of posts like that was never going to happen anyway

 

[dsm363]

Your point of view isn't important. Your delivery is.

Please - if someone is rude to you, report the post and then DO NOT respond in kind. Be polite and let us clean up the mess, instead of helping push the whole thread into a spiral.

Well said.

 

[darthy001]

Conversations with friends are with people you know. You can say things that if written down would sound horrible and get away with it because they know you are not serious. When you write the same things to strangers on an internet forum they may not go over very well.

Of course, but the forums I've frequented in he past have had a much higher level of tolerance for this kind of behavior. Thus the comment about cultural differences since those forums where all based in Norway

 

[hockeythug]

The inside access and info Tesla gives this site and some of the obviously well connected members on here is nice but also leads to the inherent flaw on here. The lack of separation from TMC.com and Tesla the company. The claim of "not affiliated with Tesla Motors, Inc" I don’t really believe to be true. That sets the tone for moderation on here IMO.

 

[darthy001]

Just to address the implication of bias and singling-out: We have a number of people on temp ban at the moment (pretty sure it's a record number in fact), and wk is just one of them. At least one would be considered a major Tesla fanboy.

Your point of view isn't important. Your delivery is.

Please - if someone is rude to you, report the post and then DO NOT respond in kind. Be polite and let us clean up the mess, instead of helping push the whole thread into a spiral.

That is of course relevant information, and makes me a bit more upbeat about this whole deal. Also very curious....

If the rude-comment was directed at me I cant recall feeling that anyone has been rude to me. Annoying as hell? Oh yes, but not rude. sure many feel the same about me and my favorite pet peeve...