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US Oil & Subsidies

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by hcsharp, May 1, 2012.

  1. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Have there really been over $1 billion in EV subsidies? I wonder if they are including loans Tesla and Fisker got. (which Tesla paid back)?
     
  2. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    yeah, I thought the same thing, not sure....
     
  3. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    The Big 3 also took money to develop alternative fuel vehicles, which is probably (and properly) in that bucket.

    The risk of using this chart is that the subsidy per vehicle is clearly much higher for EVs than for ICE vehicles. OTOH, if you look at the profits being raked in by Big Oil, it's abundantly clear that these subsidies are basically being stuffed into the pockets of shareholders.
     
  4. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    So tell me if I have this correctly, big oil gets subsidies and that keeps oil prices lower ( that is a joke) in this country, but big oil is still making billions. So how about stopping the subsidies and not allowing big oil to raise prices so instead of making billions they only make millions. Then take the money from what was the subsides and put it toward getting us off fossil fuel.
     
  5. Johan

    Johan Funds for M3 secured. Contingent on wife aproval.

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    Do you not seriously think they have every other politician in their pocket? Reality is worse than the movies.
     
  6. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    I know just dreaming, but it is like a horror movie.
     
  7. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    Yeah, it's so freakin stupid that the answer is sitting right there in front of us. We will be our own demise.
     
  8. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    Last year about 100,000 plug in vehicles were sold. With a federal tax credit of $7,500/vehicle that is $750 million alone. I am sure there are costs for the program as well Since the chart is 2010 to date that cover 175,000 EV sales for a total of $1.3 Billion. So yes those numbers add up. I wish there was a source for the fossil fuel subsidies as that number seems high or might include a lot of defense and health care money that,while I believe those numbers, can be easily disputed.
     
  9. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    See my link to the CBO report upthread for a source on the subsidies to fossil fuels.
     
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  10. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I saw your link and $3 billion is a long way from $13 billion. Your report which seem very credible shows the bulk of the money going to renewables. The earlier pie chart was overwhelming fossil fuels. That 13 billion number is what I am questioning.
     
  11. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    The CBO report documents $24 billion in support: $20.5 bn in "tax preferences" and $3.5 bn in direct payments. "Tax preferences" is a form of spending, just as surely as writing a check. In fact, the $7500/vehicle rebate is a "tax preference".

    So the question I have about the chart is why the $18 bn is so much lower than the CBO figure.
     
  12. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    #32 dhrivnak, May 9, 2014
    Last edited: May 9, 2014
    I must be missing something as it looks like most of the tax breaks now in effect seem to be for renewables.

    I am all for renewables but having A hard time finding the massive fossil fuel tax breaks.
     
  13. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    That's only because you don't know the tax code very well. The oil and gas industry enjoys at least 18 tax breaks that I know of (last time I checked) that are exclusive or heavily favored to oil, gas, coal and related support industries. I'm sure there are many more that I don't know about. Many of them don't specifically mention oil, gas, etc. but there are enough conditions that no or few other industries can take advantage of them. Then we need to talk about the below-market leases on public lands, etc.

    But I think the biggest subsidies are the externalities that result from burning fossil fuels. It's very hard to measure those but the public has to pay, partially through taxes, and partially in other ways for the immediate and long-lasting consequences of extracting, refining and burning dirty fuels.
     
    • Informative x 1
  14. RichardC

    RichardC Cdn Sig & Solar Supporter

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    One must look at the cumulative impact of the subsidies. In this regard, and apart from indirect costs such as those associated with military expenditures in the Middle East and other oil producing regions, climate change impacts, and other indirect costs, the oil, coal, gas and nuclear industries have received approximately $630 billion in United States government subsidies, while wind, solar, biofuels and other renewable sectors have received a total of roughly $50 billion in government investments in cumulative dollar amounts, over the lifetimes of their respective subsidies. See page 29 at: http://www.dblinvestors.com/documents/What-Would-Jefferson-Do-Final-Version.pdf

    As reflected in a report from the Congressional Budget Office, all of the tax subsidies for renewable energy are of limited duration, whereas three fossil fuel tax subsidies and one for nuclear energy are permanent (i.e. they never expire). See Table 1 at: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/03-06-FuelsandEnergy_Brief.pdf

    See also:
    http://www.eli.org/sites/default/files/docs/Energy_Subsidies_Black_Not_Green.pdf
    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-real-deal-on-u.s.-subsidies-fossils-72b-renewable-energys-12b
    http://act.350.org/sign/subsidies/
    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/americas-most-obvious-tax-reform-idea-kill-the-oil-and-gas-subsidies/274121/
    http://www.hamiltonproject.org/files/downloads_and_links/THP_15WaysFedBudget_Prop5.pdf
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/news/2013/03/12/56240/meet-the-new-oil-tax-breaks-same-as-the-old-oil-tax-breaks/
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks
    http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/01/the-fix-in-fossil-fuels
    http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

    The global costs and indirect subsidies are much greater, as noted by the IMF:

    See: http://www.imf.org/external/np/pp/eng/2013/012813.pdf
    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/11/07/2908361/rich-countries-fossil-fuel-subsidies/
    https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/02/10-7
    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Federal_coal_subsidies

    Canada, Australia and other developed countries which should know better are also directly and indirectly subsidizing fossil fuels and excessive GHG emissions. See:

    http://paidtopollute.org.au/ptp-fossil-fuel-subsidies
    http://www.pannelldiscussions.net/2014/04/265-fossil-fuel-subsidies/
    http://www.odi.org.uk/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/8668.pdf
    http://ecoopportunity.net/2013/04/fossil-fuel-subsidies-nearly-800-per-canadian-says-the-imf/
    http://climateactionnetwork.ca/archive/e/fossil-tax-breaks/
    http://www.oecd.org/site/tadffss/Fossil%20Fuels%20Inventory_Policy_Brief.pdf
     
  15. Incredulocious

    Incredulocious '11 LEAF → '13 RAV4EV → '18 Model 3

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    I just posted an itemized oil, gas and coal subsidies elimination list in another thread which apparently comes from a version of the Sanders / Ellison End Polluter Welfare Act.

    I assume it would be inappropriate to repeat it here, given the length of it, so here it is:
    post #15 of Catalog of oil industry tax and other subsidies
     
  16. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    #36 dhrivnak, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
    I think EVs are north of $3b. As each of Chevy, Nissan and Tesla have sold north of 100,000 units and at $7500 for each car I get $2.25B for those 3 companies alone.
     
  17. rays427

    rays427 Member

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    Just about all these so called subsidies are the same tax breaks that all companies enjoy. Historically the oil companies make less rate of return than other industries. There overall profit at times is high because they produce so much energy.As of now with the low oil prices they make very little. The major company I worked for had losses in 2 out of the last 4 quarters. Remember the actual subsidies for renewables is not just the $7500 for cars but there are subsidies for solar and wind. I personally got $10,000 (included $2500 from state) subsidy for my car and around another $30,000 for the solar panels I installed. Solar and wind companies also get subsidies. The percentage of subsidies to renewable energy is on a percentage of energy produced much greater than anything the fossil fuel industry gets.
     
  18. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Not being fined for the 40B tons of CO2 and all the associated consequences is an enormous subsidy beyond measure...
     
  19. Incredulocious

    Incredulocious '11 LEAF → '13 RAV4EV → '18 Model 3

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    Now wait, how are these oil and gas industry subsidies I just posted a link to above the "same tax breaks that all companies enjoy"?? They sure sound unique to the oil and gas industries:
     
  20. rays427

    rays427 Member

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    The only good point on subsidies is that we have spent billions on protecting our supply of oil. All the other so called subsidies are similar tax write offs that other companies get. Chevron's taxes were 40% in 2013 38% in 2014 and only 3% in 2015 and is going to be negative in 2016 since their profits are going to be negative. Chevron's rate of return on capital employed (ROCE) was 10.9% in 2014 and 2.5% in 2015 and will be negative in 2016. I don't know where the numbers came from that Exxon made over a dollar per gallon in 2014. The actual numbers are they made $32.5 billion profit and sold 5.8 million barrels per day of product. This calculates out to 37 cents per gallon. In 2015 their profit was $16.2 billion with the same product sales so their profit per gallon was about 18 cents per gallon and so far this year it's about 9 cents per gallon. Since Chevron's profit so far this year is negative their profit per gallon is negative. I retired from Chevron in 1999 because I was tired of laying folks off. Our average profit per gallon of product sales over that time was around 5 cents per gallon. Two of the years it was negative. Shortly after I retired the price of oil spiked and the profits soared. However, even with the high prices the major oil companies ROCE still tended to be less than companies like Apple. If you average out their profits their ROCE is much less than most industries. Yes, at times, they make huge profits but they have huge capital outlays compared to most other industries. They also have times like today where they don't make much money and can even have losses.
     
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