Using EV's as emergency supplements to Powerwall?

[KBF]

(originally posted on investor forums, but maybe it will find traction here).

Way back Elon talked about using EV's as battery backups, or for helping buffer the grid. Is California the only place where this has actually happened (there was an article recently, maybe someone can refresh my memory)?

I'm building a Net Zero home on Vancouver Island next year, hopefully getting a Powerwall to run the solar through (availability seems tricky in Canada). But it seems to me that my X (and future CT) could theoretically add a lot of emergency storage in case of power outages...

Is there any way for our EV's to supplement a Powerwall yet, or is that going to be an undelivered idea? Or is this simply unworkable?

And how advanced is the current California 'grid stabilization' thing? Is it just in a test stage? Are any non-Tesla EV's capable? It seems to me that it theoretically could be a valuable feature (another competitive advantage), but I haven't heard a lot of talk about it from Tesla (maybe I've just missed it in the last few years... Apart from that one very recent example)

 

[zanary]

No Tesla vehicles to date can do V2G. We don't know about any future products having that feature, but we can hope.

It's up to each storage energy solution provide to negotiate a "Virtual Battery" solution with the grid operators. Tesla did that in California with PG&E and the other two grid operators in SoCal. It's not as easy as just configuring the pack to send back electricity to the grid. I believe that the grid providers needs to check how many homes can send back simultaneously and Tesla controls the energy in the Gateway. During enrollment you have to provider PG&E account number and apparently PG&E has to vet it to make sure that their infrastructure can support sending back during a Virtual Battery condition.

It's a great idea, however I assume that each grid operator needs to work with each storage vendor to make this feature available.

 

[h2ofun]

Ford F-150 can do it. And I believe a Nissan Leaf can now also. I just left the co that sells the leaf charger to get info. Sound like its for business only, but am asking.

 

[zanary]

Ford F-150 can do it. And I believe a Nissan Leaf can now also. I just left the co that sells the leaf charger to get info. Sound like its for business only, but am asking.

Those vehicles are designed to do this (ie, they have the hardware and needed software to do this). Elon had said way back in the day, that as long as there are Tesla that still get free unlimited supercharging, or those who don't but have referral supercharging perks still, he can't allow this feature.

 

[holeydonut]

I think there are a lot of challenges to overcome to achieve this. So to make it "work" would requiring addressing all the facets.

1) The hardware involved would need to support it... Articles like this describe that in some cases the hardware on the vehicle is capable of converting DC to AC, but of course it's hard to tell if this article is accurate or if your specific vehicle has the hardware. We also know that Tesla Roasters had this feature, but since those owners tended to be mega-rich they never used it. This bias unfortunately affected Musk's take on whether plebes with lower-end models would want the functionality.

Tesla quietly adds bidirectional charging capability for game-changing new features [Updated]

Electrek has learned that Tesla has quietly made Model 3, and likely Model Y, ready for bidirectional charging, which should...

electrek.co

Musk downplays vehicle-to-grid technology: "It has lower utility than you think"

Musk says V2G could be delivered with software update, but downplays its utility because Powerwalls are more dependable storage option than battery on wheels.

thedriven.io

2) The control software would need to support it... I'm an idiot with sub-zero qualifications to speak to this. Maybe you can @bmah or @wwhitney to learn what it would take to activate an energy export command to have an EV export at a specific kW that is then somehow converted to AC @ 240v and specific Hz.

3) The safety element to the PoCo... vehicle to grid is messy since it actually goes back onto the PoCo's infrastructure. The amount of red tape involved to make a grid-exporting system work within the massively complex PoCo ruleset is massive. Tesla's Powerwalls are loaded with specific grid profiles and undergo a ton of testing as power control systems. Since existing EV automobiles are not equipped with the same measures, it is unlikely that the existing EVs would be allowed to have any exported energy touch the Grid. I think you can look up UL1741 for more info.

4) The safety element for the microgrid... as mentioned above, the Ford F150 Lightning is vehicle to home only. The truck can only export energy to the home when a relay decouples the home from the PoCo grid. Then, the hardware that is installed at the house measures home load demand, and the truck is instructed to export energy to meet that local demand. My understanding is the F150 Lightning does not have a DC-AC inverter; rather the hardware installed on the home converts the DC to AC.

AEE Express- The online store of AEE Solar, wholesale distributor of solar products and equipment - Sunrun Home Integration System (required to enable Ford Intelligent Backup Power)

<img alt= class=wp-image-4147 height=38 loading=lazy sizes=(max-width: 194px) 100vw, 194px src=https://www.aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Sunrun-Logo-Dark-Blue-1024x206.png srcset=https://www.aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Sunrun-Logo-Dark-Blue-1024x206.png 1024w...

aeeexpress.com

5) Economics and arbitrage... unfortunately anything involving storing energy and exporting it back to the house is rife with all the red tape and issues surrounding rate arbitrage. The dream is to take energy from a one source, then export it back to your home instead of taking the super-expensive (California) or super eco-unfriendly (Kentucky) energy from the grid. As Zanary describes above... arbitraging Elon's free supercharging is a dealbreaker for Tesla. And if your PoCo realized you were rate arbitraging without paying them "a fair share" they'll come banging on your door to demand some money. Also, whoever controls the entire ecosystem stands to profit. That's why Sunrun and Tesla now have VPP's so these mega corps can manage the combined might of all the machines together. They don't want you as an individual taking independent control. They want to be able to push a button and tell 10,000 people like you to export so they can bank the energy credits (while paying you a portion of the value as a generator). Anyway, the moment there's money involved for the mega corps and IOUs, expect the individual to feel left out of the conversation.

6) Politicians and Policymakers... if you don't have the $ to get in with politicians and policymakers, then your interests will have no voice and no seat at the table.

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As an aside, Enphase acquired Clipper Creek so they can start looking into bi-directional energy flows to either the home or ultimately to the grid. Clearly there is no straight line path to the end game, so you can see they're an energy company that just want their foot in the door. Ultimately companies like Tesla, GM, Enphase, etc will come around, but I wouldn't expect them to have an open ecosystem so some homeowner in Vancouver will have an easy time making their home a net-zero home using an EV for load balancing.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Way back Elon talked about using EV's as battery backups, or for helping buffer the grid. Is California the only place where this has actually happened (there was an article recently, maybe someone can refresh my memory)?

And how advanced is the current California 'grid stabilization' thing? Is it just in a test stage? Are any non-Tesla EV's capable?

There are no EVs that are being used to export power to the grid as far as I know and all of the discussion around that is sometime in the future. Tesla EV warranties explicitly exclude using the 12V power ports for powering house loads and damage has occurred to people that have tried to do this as the circuits were not designed to handle extended high current loads. There is no capability for the Telsla EV high voltage charge port to export energy. Other EV manufacturers are seeing this as a weakness and including features for V2H, vehicle to home, once that is in place then it would be possible to extend to the grid, but it would require approvals from the utilities to be implemented just like solar requires.

What you were reading about was Tesla Powerwalls used in California as a Virtual Power Plant, VPP, for the second time (first was a pilot in 2021) to provide additional power to the grid. California is late to the party in this respect and this has been happening in Vermont, Massachusetts, maybe a few other states and in some other countries since the first Powerwall was released.

 

[jjrandorin]

But it seems to me that my X (and future CT) could theoretically add a lot of emergency storage in case of power outages..

Thats not happening anytime soon that we are aware of.

People have been asking for this but no current teslas we are aware of have bi directional ports. Some other EVs have them (see posts above) but how it might or might not integrate with any on site battery storage would be another story.

You likely want a different battery storage system than tesla powerwalls, and different EVs than tesla. Search this subforum for V2G for existing discussions on this topic, like these:

V2G support in Backup Gateway/Switch

According to a reddit post (), the standard for V2G has finally been published. Most people don't realize that a bunch of hardware will need to be installed house side to use V2G. But we do! In theory, Tesla could add support for V2G protocols to the Backup Gateway and PW+ (since that's the...

teslamotorsclub.com

Interesting that PG&E is actually working with Chevrolet on V2G (or V2H)

I have no clue which forum this goes in; I guess since F150 Lightning talk is in this sub, then some Silverado EV talk can go here too hah. https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/8/22965919/gm-pge-ev-charging-grid-home-california Not much details, but it seems PG&E (on paper) wants to actually work...

teslamotorsclub.com

Path to V2G and Model Y [there is none]

I expect to order my MY next year after Vermont's "mud season" is over. Later that year (SP willing) I'll work with TE to get solar panels and one or two PowerWalls. Ideally I would like the MY to be able to use some of the energy from the panels on good days, as well as provide further...

teslamotorsclub.com

Vehicle-to-Home Load Shifting $14k 6-yr savings?

People have been talking about Vehicle-to-Grid as a potential for Tesla and customers to make money selling to the grid when demand is high leveraging long life cycles of 2+ million mile batteries. V2G would be a superset of what one could do with Vehicle-to-Home, which instead of selling to the...

teslamotorsclub.com

A2H along with Powerwalls

Hi all, Apologies if this has been answered (I searched archives but did not find the exact same scenario) We have 2 PWs with solar running on the grid. I'd like to eventually add an EV with bidirectional charging to this setup (ie, Ford F150 down the road or CT in theory). Would I be able...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

My understanding is the F150 Lightning does not have a DC-AC inverter; rather the hardware installed on the home converts the DC to AC.

Yea, pretty sure they are using a CCS plug on the units to pull DC from the pack to an inverter on the wall. I guess the cable also has the AC pins for slow charging, so there’s got to be some more complex communication between the wall unit and the truck.

 

[Silicon Desert]

This is the only electric vehicle I know about that can currently give home electricity

 

[holeydonut]

Yea, pretty sure they are using a CCS plug on the units to pull DC from the pack to an inverter on the wall. I guess the cable also has the AC pins for slow charging, so there’s got to be some more complex communication between the wall unit and the truck.

Yeah, that link I provided has some good reading on how the new system specs work. Looks like V2Home uses a Delta inverter to change the F150 DC export into usable suds in your house. It seems like the same inverter could be used to couple solar as well. Personally, I want to see this F150 lightning in action under V2H where it's somehow working along side solar in a complete off-grid setup. Would be really cool.

@h2ofun maybe could add 100 more solar panels and five F150 Lightnings and live totally off grid! No more PG&E! But he probably thinks an F150 is too small ... since he thinks EVs are all too tiny and cramped haha. @jjrandorin is face palming right now. I can feel it.

 

[jjrandorin]

(lol)

 

[h2ofun]

There are no EVs that are being used to export power to the grid as far as I know and all of the discussion around that is sometime in the future. Tesla EV warranties explicitly exclude using the 12V power ports for powering house loads and damage has occurred to people that have tried to do this as the circuits were not designed to handle extended high current loads. There is no capability for the Telsla EV high voltage charge port to export energy. Other EV manufacturers are seeing this as a weakness and including features for V2H, vehicle to home, once that is in place then it would be possible to extend to the grid, but it would require approvals from the utilities to be implemented just like solar requires.

What you were reading about was Tesla Powerwalls used in California as a Virtual Power Plant, VPP, for the second time (first was a pilot in 2021) to provide additional power to the grid. California is late to the party in this respect and this has been happening in Vermont, Massachusetts, maybe a few other states and in some other countries since the first Powerwall was released.

Not true. The Leaf can now do it. I called and left a message for the co that makes the charger to see if it can work in a residential and the cost. So far, cannot get a hold of anyone. But, if this can be made to work in my house, I might just spend the money for a new leaf and charger and have more fun with technology in my house, with zero ROI.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Not true. The Leaf can now do it. I called and left a message for the co that makes the charger to see if it can work in a residential and the cost. So far, cannot get a hold of anyone. But, if this can be made to work in my house, I might just spend the money for a new leaf and charger and have more fun with technology in my house, with zero ROI.

All of the press articles on the Leaf/Fermata are talking about it being Vehicle-to-Building currently, although Fermata does use V2X with X=everything and sure if you are powering the building then electricity goes wherever it wants to go and that can mean the grid. Still, this is in the proto/beta phase with a very limited rolllout for fleets and governments, I would be very surprised if you got any response from them.

 

[h2ofun]

All of the press articles on the Leaf/Fermata are talking about it being Vehicle-to-Building currently, although Fermata does use V2X with X=everything and sure if you are powering the building then electricity goes wherever it wants to go and that can mean the grid. Still, this is in the proto/beta phase with a very limited rolllout for fleets and governments, I would be very surprised if you got any response from them.

I have read their comments that it can go both ways. BUt, I do agree, since I have yet to get a response, that residential is not their focus.

 

[KBF]

Thanks, everyone! Yeah, I totally mixed up the recent California thing - Powerwalls/solar only makes more sense - and maybe I jumbled in some marketing about the F-150.

The free Supercharging is definitely something people would take advantage of - that would definitely not be sustainable...

I appreciate the points about the technical aspects of house loads - it makes sense that this requires different/additional hardware/software.

Even an off-grid only option would be cool. We use our vehicles mainly during the day, and need more storage at night when the sun is gone. But I suppose there are still complexities to overcome (and houses/systems have to be designed with that in mind, and it's probably too small a market for it to be worth it...)

 

[Unclepaul]

Do not believe that the current F150 has this capability. They promote it in their marketing, but an expensive bridge is necessary to do the VTG transfer. Believe it is a capacity they wish to roll out, but currently unobtanium.

 

[h2ofun]

Do not believe that the current F150 has this capability. They promote it in their marketing, but an expensive bridge is necessary to do the VTG transfer. Believe it is a capacity they wish to roll out, but currently unobtanium.

I believe sunrun installs the charger to make this happen. Expensive, thats a relative term. PW's are EXPENSIVE!!

 

[sunwarriors]

I'd keep an eye on the youtube channel State of Charge as Tom (channel owner), is setting up the F150 to do the backup for his home and he seems further ahead than many others and more importantly, will share how it all works (he's in construction now) in videos.

Enphase, in press releases state around 2024 is when we should hear more from V2H. Similar to delays with IQ8, I doubt any product will be available, but this doesn't help non-enphase users. I assume there is no reason with the wide adoption of Tesla cars to not support the bulk of the EVs out there so this maybe a reality once they come out with a product. The Leaf and Ford sorta is the proof of concept this can work already, it's just whether any company will put in the effort.

GM is also working on this as noted in the link above. Tesla, with their lead could be doing more to do this, but I can see all the Tesla owners not buying Powerwalls considering how massive all EV batteries are honestly if this worked.

They have more to lose than a lot of the other manufacturers if V2H was a reality.

 

[holeydonut]

Boooooo... the Ford 150 Lightning forum users say that if the Grid is offline, then the truck cannot charge from solar even if you pay Sunrun to add solar panels alongside the HIS. So the truck is not really a DC-coupled ESS the way I thought it would be. I guess the DC from the truck and DC from the solar all go through the Delta inverter back to the house ... but the DC to DC charging isn't an option.

 

[charlesj]

... , with zero ROI.

I have some in my workshop with this.