V11 is going to be HUGE!

[Ostrichsak]

yes...so?

So? If the games occupy storage space they're part of the problem. Like I already said, these aren't 100% cloud based and streamed meaning nothing is stored locally so that means that EVERY single owner has storage space taken up with crap they don't even want in the first place. So it's a double edged sword when you also add in the fact that these items most people don't want are also accelerating them towards a repair that will be $2,500 and leave them potentially stranded somewhere.

Are you even remotely aware of the dumpster fire that is MCU1 vehicles becoming bricked due to over-logging and other Tesla-created issue to include sourcing the cheapest supplier of eMMC's they could find? Everything that I just mentioned accelerates this problem. Farts an video games magnify the problem to some degree. Any amount is too much for those of us who have no interest in the "benefits" having this idiotic things provide.

I have a tablet that uses emmc...loaded to the gills....still works just as well as first boot.

Which has next to zero relevance to this particular conversation. This is about as applicable as people saying that they need new cell phones every year or two because of their Li-Ion battery in it not holding a charge anymore so they assume that because Teslas are also Li-Ion they have to replace those annually too.

But I very much doubt that farts and/or games are using any resources on the car unless they are being run, any more than having an app sitting on your computer consumes resources (other than storage space) when its not being used.

You're not reading what I and many others are saying about this topic then because there's a direct relation. Due to how flash memory works (the eMMC that Tesla uses is a type of flash) the less free space you have the slower and more prone to failures it becomes. This is true when new and it snowballs at a pretty rapid rate making the problem get exponentially worse as time goes on.

Farts, video games and other senseless crap that most people nearly never use occupies unnecessary space on said flash storage. We can debate just how much that is but this isn't necessary since I think we can all agree that ANY amount is more than zero. In another stroke of brilliance Tesla decided to have the entire system logging everything it does 24/7/365 endlessly. They then chose to compound the problem by sourcing the cheapest, slowest and lowest capacity eMMC that money could buy.

Like I said, this isn't as much of a problem (yet) with the MCU2 cars because they utilize larger storage capacity hardware. Fast forward another 4-5 years though when the firmware has grown to an equal percentage as the current firmware is on the current storage and you'll see the same thing play out again. Much like the batterygate issue with older cars the newer car owners don't seem to care much... until enough time passes that their car becomes infected and now, suddenly, they care.

If Tesla cared, they could disable most of the logging, clean up their code and remove unnecessary bloat as well as clean up bugs present and all of this would GREATLY prolong the lifespan of the eMMC in the MCU1 cars. Instead, we now have a NHTSA investigation because Tesla clearly doesn't have this as a priority and Model S owners are becoming stranded in quickly increasing numbers.

 

[Battpower]

they could disable most of the logging, clean up their code and remove unnecessary bloat as well as clean up bugs present and all of this would GREATLY prolong the lifespan of the eMMC in the MCU1 cars.

And pigs might fly!

Many with newer models seem pretty oblivious to the realities being spelled out. The chips all have finite use and things like high temps can make things worse.

 

[Ostrichsak]

And pigs might fly!

Many with newer models seem pretty oblivious to the realities being spelled out. The chips all have finite use and things like high temps can make things worse.

I know that's not going to happen which is why I'm trying to get others to understand how this is a rather large problem and it's one that will effect all of these cars... eventually. They think that when I say negative things about Tesla wasting resources to code and implement things like farts and games that I'm just a "hater" but they don't realize that those same resources can be used to fix current bugs and problems. It's also compounded when you factor the finite storage issue and how farts and games are eroding that number making eminent failure come sooner and sooner exponentially.

Their time will come with this eMMC issue as well as the batterygate issue. Then we'll see how much of a "hater" I am when their faced with the same symptoms they claim aren't a big deal now. Tesla is absolutely losing sight of how the whole world is watching how they treat these older cars with "free software updates for life" that cost so much money only a few years ago and so far.. it ain't good.

 

[Redbrick]

So? If the games occupy storage space they're part of the problem. Like I already said, these aren't 100% cloud based and streamed meaning nothing is stored locally so that means that EVERY single owner has storage space taken up with crap they don't even want in the first place. So it's a double edged sword when you also add in the fact that these items most people don't want are also accelerating them towards a repair that will be $2,500 and leave them potentially stranded somewhere.

Are you even remotely aware of the dumpster fire that is MCU1 vehicles becoming bricked due to over-logging and other Tesla-created issue to include sourcing the cheapest supplier of eMMC's they could find? Everything that I just mentioned accelerates this problem. Farts an video games magnify the problem to some degree. Any amount is too much for those of us who have no interest in the "benefits" having this idiotic things provide.



Which has next to zero relevance to this particular conversation. This is about as applicable as people saying that they need new cell phones every year or two because of their Li-Ion battery in it not holding a charge anymore so they assume that because Teslas are also Li-Ion they have to replace those annually too.



You're not reading what I and many others are saying about this topic then because there's a direct relation. Due to how flash memory works (the eMMC that Tesla uses is a type of flash) the less free space you have the slower and more prone to failures it becomes. This is true when new and it snowballs at a pretty rapid rate making the problem get exponentially worse as time goes on.

Farts, video games and other senseless crap that most people nearly never use occupies unnecessary space on said flash storage. We can debate just how much that is but this isn't necessary since I think we can all agree that ANY amount is more than zero. In another stroke of brilliance Tesla decided to have the entire system logging everything it does 24/7/365 endlessly. They then chose to compound the problem by sourcing the cheapest, slowest and lowest capacity eMMC that money could buy.

Like I said, this isn't as much of a problem (yet) with the MCU2 cars because they utilize larger storage capacity hardware. Fast forward another 4-5 years though when the firmware has grown to an equal percentage as the current firmware is on the current storage and you'll see the same thing play out again. Much like the batterygate issue with older cars the newer car owners don't seem to care much... until enough time passes that their car becomes infected and now, suddenly, they care.

If Tesla cared, they could disable most of the logging, clean up their code and remove unnecessary bloat as well as clean up bugs present and all of this would GREATLY prolong the lifespan of the eMMC in the MCU1 cars. Instead, we now have a NHTSA investigation because Tesla clearly doesn't have this as a priority and Model S owners are becoming stranded in quickly increasing numbers.

calm down...just chill. I get you feel ripped by tesla, what you are saying is games and other accessory-ware is slowing down ....or will slow down our essential system. While I can't speak for the earlier cars.... I genuinely would like to know how you know this for a fact? Have you seen the code to make this claim? Also, how do you know the parts are cheap in this car? (I'm not cheerleading tesla, you can see my post history....) ...just want to see your evidence to back your claim...that's all.

 

[Ostrichsak]

calm down...just chill. I get you feel ripped by tesla, what you are saying is games and other accessory-ware is slowing down ....or will slow down our essential system. While I can't speak for the earlier cars.... I genuinely would like to know how you know this for a fact? Have you seen the code to make this claim? Also, how do you know the parts are cheap in this car? (I'm not cheerleading tesla, you can see my post history....) ...just want to see your evidence to back your claim...that's all.

Not sure if serious or.... ??

Back my claim? I'm not making this up. There are countless active threads about this very thing going on right now backing my claims with known figures and facts. You would have to be living under a rock to legitimately have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[MP3Mike]

Back my claim? I'm not making this up. There are countless active threads about this very thing going on right now backing my claims with known figures and facts. You would have to be living under a rock to legitimately have no idea what I'm talking about.

Well this isn't an accurate fact:

So it's a double edged sword when you also add in the fact that these items most people don't want are also accelerating them towards a repair that will be $2,500 and leave them potentially stranded somewhere.

Repairs are ~$500 for just the Tegra board or ~$1,500 for a MCU1 replacement.

 

[Battpower]

Repairs are ~$500 for just the Tegra board or ~$1,500 for a MCU1 replacement.

Agree, but they are fairly recent developments and I think that you can't just sweep the eMMC issue under the carpet quite that easily. It is great that the Tegra board is now available.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Well this isn't an accurate fact:

Repairs are ~$500 for just the Tegra board or ~$1,500 for a MCU1 replacement.

It "isn't accurate" only if you don't want to take the opportunity to upgrade to an MCU2. Yes, it can be done for $500-$1500 but if you're going to spend that much you may as well go ahead and upgrade while you're at it.

So I didn't say something that was "inaccurate" as you put it so much as just incomplete. I was just thinking from the angle I would go if I was forced to invest more money. For purposes of this conversation it was accurate enough since that was amount the smaller points I was making. There's also people who claim to have got Tesla to replace their eMMC for $140 as well so since you didn't suggest that should I attack you now too for inaccuracies?

I swear, some people on this forum will find just about anything to start an argument over.

 

[Akikiki]

...and the new turn signal repeater camera view will only be MCU/2.

@zanary, What is this please?

 

[MP3Mike]

It "isn't accurate" only if you don't want to take the opportunity to upgrade to an MCU2. Yes, it can be done for $500-$1500 but if you're going to spend that much you may as well go ahead and upgrade while you're at it.

But you didn't say upgrade, you said repair. And nobody is forced to upgrade. In fact some people don't want to upgrade at all because they want to keep AM, FM, and/or XM.

 

[nepenthe]

This would be true if they were 100% streamed which they are not. The app is installed on the limited storage (like all other crap apps) and the more storage you use the slower and more prone to corruption it becomes. Given the well-known eMMC issues us MCU1 folks are plagued with this is the exact sort of thing that lends to that premature failure and awful experience in the years running up to failure.

That’s not how this works, honestly. Perhaps, perhaps one could argue if you are pushing the storage beyond 80% total capacity used, you’ll start to see some marginal decrease in inherit speed — but I would wager unless you’re approaching 95%+, it’s basically negligible (not noticeable).

Sure, all flash storage has an estimated life-span measured in write cycles, but if you’re not playing the app/game... again, I do not think this is why you would see a decrease in interactivity within normal UI tasks. The slowdown would be from added features/cpu-cycles needed within the UI to accomplish the same task as prior. Not from some game sitting unused and where updates to said games are presumably only applied as deltas.

 

[nepenthe]

In terms of volatile random access memory you're not wrong. When you launch a game it loads in RAM and plays from there since it's so much quicker. Each time you reboot this is cleared which is (part of) why manual reboots help to recover a slow and unresponsive MCU.

In terms of flash storage, aka eMMC, aka the main failure point in the MCU1 that's under current investigation by the NHTSA, you absolutely affect both performance and lifespan by installing all of these games & apps that aren't important to vehicle experience and controls. This is largely a non-issue (for now) with MCU2 vehicles because the eMMC the chose is much larger so this won't become an issue until the firmware with all of the games/games/crap grows to a point where it occupies a larger % of the maximum capacity... like it is now on the MCU1 cars.

This is why you can have a laptop with a 1TB flash drive and one with a 250GB flash drive of the same manufacturer/speed/technology with nothing but Windows loaded on them and the 1TB machine will be much faster and have a longer life expectancy. This delta only grows as you install more apps/games/programs and get closer to max capacity of the 250GB drive. This delta grows even more as you sprinkle in time and portions of the storage become corrupt and otherwise unusable.

It's the same thing with the eMMC (read: non-volatile memory) in these cars. Every single app, game or program they install with an update expands the size of the footprint in storage. Even if you NEVER open a single game they will affect your system resource allocation which will directly impact interaction speed and overall lifespan. This is why so many complain about farts and games when basic functionality is been greatly impacted over the years. This is a literal misallocation of resources both in terms of coding and hardware that has greatly impacted older MCU1 cars which represents the majority of their Model S fleet still today.

Flash drives of different capacities have different max potential speeds because they are writing concurrently to more NAND at the same time and for no other reason. Storage would only become corrupt from outside electro-static influences, manufacture defects or from approaching the end lifespan of available write cycles. Not from data sitting idle, when total storage capacity is below or near 80%.

 

[malou]

How about non-FSD stuff for V11? SiriusXM streaming? Apple Music? Being able to answer a phone call from the steering wheel? Being able to say “Call Jane Doe, mobile” and not having to select the number from the screen?

maybe while I am dreaming... I dunno.. something as technologically advanced as remembering where you were in your podcast???

I saw the Reddit thread when it came out, the same guy said, in a now deleted comment, a major Spotify rewrite was also happening. "Think desktop Spotify" he wrote or something like that. I guess we'll see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[drtimhill]

You're not reading what I and many others are saying about this topic then because there's a direct relation. Due to how flash memory works (the eMMC that Tesla uses is a type of flash) the less free space you have the slower and more prone to failures it becomes. This is true when new and it snowballs at a pretty rapid rate making the problem get exponentially worse as time goes on.

Farts, video games and other senseless crap that most people nearly never use occupies unnecessary space on said flash storage. We can debate just how much that is but this isn't necessary since I think we can all agree that ANY amount is more than zero. In another stroke of brilliance Tesla decided to have the entire system logging everything it does 24/7/365 endlessly. They then chose to compound the problem by sourcing the cheapest, slowest and lowest capacity eMMC that money could buy.

While I agree with the logging issue, the game "space" issue is (or at least should be) far less of an issue. Decent wear-leveling on flash drives is complex, but basically it can access and reuse ALL blocks, allocated or not (via TRIM). There is a slight advantage to re-using free blocks over allocated blocks which is why file systems send this information to the flash control layer. However, dont think that a "full" drive cannot access ALL the underlying blocks for wear leveling. So the issue isnt how much free space you have, its how much disk writing you do.

Now, I'm not saying that the Tesla stack gets it right; I dont have access to the software stack. If the wear leveling is dumb, then yes, extra "clutter" files like games might impact things. But in this case the fix isnt to delete the games, its to fix the underlying storage stack deficiency.

 

[drtimhill]

So if anyone is interested in the "back story" here... In very simplified terms, here's what goes on with flash drives and wear leveling. Apologies to all those here who already know much of this, not talking "down" to anyone, just adding some info to the thread that some might find useful.

Flash drives are divided into "blocks" (quite large), and each bock must be erased before it can be written. Each block has a limited lifespan, which varies based on the flash technology used, usually somewhere between 1000 to 10,000 erase/write cycles (each). This is the guaranteed minimum, but after this the flash block may not erase or write correctly .. they can still be read but they are shot as far as writes are concerned.

If you have a flash drive of a certain capacity "X" (in blocks) with each block having "C" maximum erase/write cycles, then in theory you can write X times C blocks before the drive wears out. However, this assumes you are writing equally to all blocks. If some blocks are used more than others, and these blocks are critical, then the drive will become worn out much, much faster (as soon as one of these critical blocks wears out).

Since computers tend not to write equally to all blocks on a drive (quite the opposite, in fact), the flash firmware adds a special software layer called wear leveling, that re-maps flash blocks in such a way that erase/write cycles are more evenly distributed across all the drive. This is (usually) handled by the drive firmware and is (mostly) transparent to the computer operating system.

Wear leveling is simple in concept (though in practice it is pretty complex). The flash drive keeps track of how often each block is erased/written. When the computer tells the drive to write to a block, the drive chooses a block which has been erased/written the least number of times. Over time, this means blocks get erased/written pretty evenly, and the drive lasts essentially until all blocks wear out more or less at the same time.

However, the flash drive can't just write to any block it chooses. After all, lots (most) of the blocks have data in them. So the drive is restricted to only choosing blocks that dont currently have anything stored in them (the computer tells the drive which these are using a special operation known as TRIM). If the drive is very full, this means the choice of blocks the drive can use is more limited, and this smaller pool of blocks get re-cycled more frequently (since there are fewer of them), causing them to wear out faster than the other blocks on the drive.

(This is the origin of the theory that full drives wear out faster than empty ones.The logic is that the smaller the free space, the smaller the pool of free blocks that can be re-used, and the faster they wear out. However....)

Some very simple (and older) drives do indeed do this sort of wear leveling, and nothing else (its possible the older Tesla eMMC did this). These drives can (and do) wear out pretty fast. However, most modern drives are smarter than that (including, I'm pretty sure, the newer Tesla hardware).

Consider that, on a typical computer, you have lots of stuff that changes very infrequently (the Tesla software itself, for example, or map data), and some stuff that changes often (your saved preferences, or data logs).

This mix of long and short lived data means that the pool of blocks the drive can re-cycle for erase/write is limited. All that long-lived stable data is "parked" in nice "fresh" blocks that the drive cannot touch. Meanwhile, the smaller set of blocks that the drive can use are re-used again and again, and over time they start to get close to the maximum number of erase/write cycles allowed for the block.

This is when the second tier of wear leveling kicks in. When a block gets near the end of its life, the wear leveling system chooses an in-use block that has the least number of erase/writes (one of those nice "fresh" blocks that has long-lived data parked data in it). It then swaps that fresh in-use block with the one that is wearing out. To do this, it actually copies the data from the fresh block it has chosen into the old, nearly worn out block. Once it has done this, it can use the fresh block for erase/write cycles, leaving the long-lived data in the older block that is nearly worn out.

What this means is that, over time, the stable data is gradually shifted into older, mostly worn-out blocks (which, since the data is stable, dont get altered much anyway), and the fresh blocks are released back into the pool of blocks that can be used for erase/write (until they in turn wear out).

The net result of all this is, even on a nearly full drive, the flash drive is able to use all the blocks for wear-leveling, at the slight expense of an occasional "swap" operation to move stable data into an older block. This is why, with better (most modern) flash drives, you do not pay a (significant) penalty for having the drive nearly full of data.

(Apologies for long post.)

 

[SpiritBreaker]

Here is my wish list; it revolves around that Tesla engineers should not be in the business of creating third-party apps or create lifestyle modes. Both third-party vendors such as Spotify, Netflix and Disney should make the apps, and the community should do.

1. Tesla should have a very lockdown App Store, to allow third-party to port their apps to any Tesla models. That way, we do not get water down version of some of our favourite apps, such as Spotify. Tesla engineers do not need to recreate every popular app. And they can move some of their fun apps such as the fart app to the store free up space since some owners of older models have issues with these apps in their cars. Plus, we should be allowed to remove the fun apps once we have our 5-second fun.
   
   
2. Instead of having random modes to try to fit into everyone's lifestyles, such as Dog Mode or Romance Mode, try creating event-based settings similar to IFTTT or Apple Shortcuts where a given event happens parking at a location other than your home or work. Then something happens. For example, during the winter months, there could be an event where the mirror folds are disabled. Those types of settings should be shareable via a Tesla hosted website so that the community can creating their settings for their part of the world. Furthermore, given customers not needing to ask Tesla to create them for them and hoping it will be in the next release.

Having vendors and customers create the apps, and different modes that fit their lifestyle will help free up engineers' time to work more essential parts of the software.

 

[kavyboy]

Here is my wish list; it revolves around that Tesla engineers should not be in the business of creating third-party apps or create lifestyle modes. Both third-party vendors such as Spotify, Netflix and Disney should make the apps, and the community should do.

1. Tesla should have a very lockdown App Store, to allow third-party to port their apps to any Tesla models. That way, we do not get water down version of some of our favourite apps, such as Spotify. Tesla engineers do not need to recreate every popular app. And they can move some of their fun apps such as the fart app to the store free up space since some owners of older models have issues with these apps in their cars. Plus, we should be allowed to remove the fun apps once we have our 5-second fun.
   
   
2. Instead of having random modes to try to fit into everyone's lifestyles, such as Dog Mode or Romance Mode, try creating event-based settings similar to IFTTT or Apple Shortcuts where a given event happens parking at a location other than your home or work. Then something happens. For example, during the winter months, there could be an event where the mirror folds are disabled. Those types of settings should be shareable via a Tesla hosted website so that the community can creating their settings for their part of the world. Furthermore, given customers not needing to ask Tesla to create them for them and hoping it will be in the next release.

Having vendors and customers create the apps, and different modes that fit their lifestyle will help free up engineers' time to work more essential parts of the software.

I agree. I want this.
I believe Elon/Tesla implied an upcoming SDK ages ago, but there's no indication it was anything but a pipe dream and things change.
This thread has more info.

 

[Puddles]

Tesla has never indicated it had any interest in engaging the community for development. The closest thing was the OpenStreetMaps rumor, and I am not convinced that was even real. They've adopted the Apple mentality: "We make it, we control it, you'll love it or leave it." Fortunately, or unfortunately, for the most part, we love it.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Tesla has never indicated it had any interest in engaging the community for development. The closest thing was the OpenStreetMaps rumor, and I am not convinced that was even real. They've adopted the Apple mentality: "We make it, we control it, you'll love it or leave it." Fortunately, or unfortunately, for the most part, we love it.

Funny, never remember Steve Jobs (or Jony Ive) asking for feedback on their products on social media.
Or for new feature requests.

Tesla can be compared to Apple in the same vein that Tesla can be compared to GM.

 

[powertoold]

"We make it, we control it, you'll love it or leave it." Fortunately, or unfortunately, for the most part, we love it.

That's how I feel about Tesla customer service, but for everything else, they mostly cater to the user / community.