v7.1 beta testing begins (Driver Mode, Self Parking, AP restrictions)

[msnow]

As you now know, he wasn't kidding.

[emoji1] I hereby declare 8.0 a fail.

 

[Max*]

It's possible that a bumpy enough road could cause false positives for touch.

Seriously?

The steering wheel (column?) senses the torque you apply. It doesn't care if you "touch it", it cares that there's torque.

 

[msnow]

I drove 2 1/2 hours last weekend without touching the wheel one time... No really, not once.

With that said, I hate nags. I'm wrapping my car in tin foil and disabling wifi. I'll have a classic Tesla on Autopilot 1.0 that can drive anywhere.

Okay now you're really kidding...

 

[liuping]

So is it 10 minutes or 15minutes or 12minutes or are you claiming a psuedo-random time based nag to avoid members of TMC from flipping out?

I've driven longer than that without touching the wheel, no nag. Didn't wk057 or someone here post a video of themselves driving for 45minutes with no nag? I don't think the current software has a nag, and until someone makes a video and shows that it's repeatable (not some random "hold me" message when the car needs moral support, especially on turns. straight road, timed, every X minutes the car demands to be held), I will not believe there is a nag.

I don't claim to know the exact values or time ranges used. I can only tell you what I observe in my Model S. I don't drive with a stop watch timing things, nor do a care that much exactly how long it takes to get the message. I do know that it does appear on my Model S, and I don't have any of the recent 7.0 variants (I just got the first 7.0 update)

There are many variable that can come into play. It could be dependent on road surface (lots of bumps could cause the steering wheel to vibrate enough to trigger the sensor), it could be it's only on newer VIN cars with more sensitive steering wheel, it could be specific software revisions, it could be any number of things or a combination of things.

 

[Cyberax]

People have claimed that the current software has a time-based nag. I don't believe them either.

The current software nags you when it senses that conditions are not optimal. It happens often enough on most roads. But you can get multi-hour nag-free driving in perfect conditions.

I'm not against an occasional nag (say, every 10 minutes). But 10 seconds? No.

Also, I'm driving with hands on my lap, gently touching the wheel. So the sensor quite often misses that I actually _have_ hands on the wheel.

 

[mikeash]

Why would you not believe them? It is easy to replicate, just drive to 10-15 minute without touching the wheel at all, not even briefly. It will eventually pop up a message saying you need to hold the wheel. You can just touch it lightly, or rest one finger on it, to get rid of the message.

I did not see it for a long time, since I rarely drive that long without at least touching the wheel once, but it is there.

I don't believe them because nobody can point to any evidence that the nag is time-based.

A time-based nag would occur at regular intervals. Every five minutes, say. Yet not one person saying such a thing exists has been able to give us the precise interval used, even though it would be trivial to do so by simply measuring the amount of time.

It's quite clear that what's happening is the car "nags" based on bad lane markings, poor visibility, or other trouble, but that this trouble isn't always evident to the driver. Some drivers see the car ask for a hand on the wheel, see nothing that would need it as far as they can tell, and then assume it must be time-based.

If anyone disagrees and thinks there really is a time-based nag, then grab a stopwatch (or a stopwatch app on your phone) and tell us what the interval is.

 

[Max*]

it could be any number of things or a combination of things.

Like the car actually NOT having a nag?

 

[liuping]

Seriously?

The steering wheel (column?) senses the torque you apply. It doesn't care if you "touch it", it cares that there's torque.

I assumed it was torque at first, but it can be disabled by just lightly touching the side of the wheel, you don't have to grab it or resist the auto steering at all. It may be only sensing torque still, but it's very sensitive. and I would not be surprised if some steering wheels are giving false feedback.

 

[brianman]

A time-based nag would occur at regular intervals. Every five minutes, say. Yet not one person saying such a thing exists has been able to give us the precise interval used, even though it would be trivial to do so by simply measuring the amount of time.
...
If anyone disagrees and thinks there really is a time-based nag, then grab a stopwatch (or a stopwatch app on your phone) and tell us what the interval is.

To be fair, there could be a "large" nag -- like every 10 hours -- but no Model S driver will come across it (because even the most efficient among us are unlikely to drive for 10 hours with Autosteer on without stopping to charge).

There might be a time-based nag but -- using TMC posts as a guide -- if there is a time-based nag it's [a] at least 30 minutes and apparently not operational on some customers' cars.

 

[Max*]

I assumed it was torque at first, but it can be disabled by just lightly touching the side of the wheel, you don't have to grab it or resist the auto steering at all. It may be only sensing torque still, but it's very sensitive. and I would not be surprised if some steering wheels are giving false feedback.

Correct, you don't have to resist at all. You have to put your hand on it, and it can sense a chance in the toque it's feeding in vs. what it's getting back (I think Ingineer described it very well, including sensitivities, I'm not an expert, so if you have specific questions, search for his posts). If you had to resist autosteer, the "place hands on wheel" message would be pointless, as you'd be forced to resist, disable autosteer, re-enable it, etc.

If it was touch based, they'd need "touch" detectors (whatever that is) at every point on the steering wheel, how would the car know where you put your hands? Not everyone drives at 10-2 or 9-3 or etc.

 

[liuping]

Like the car actually NOT having a nag?

Since I have seen the nag several times, and other people in the car with me have seen it as well (once it popped up while I was demoing Autopilot to some coworkers), at least for some Model S modes in the US, the Nag exists.

It is possible that it does not show up on some cars, but it does most definitely does on at least one car (mine). I cannot tell you about any other Model S out there.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct, you don't have to resist at all. You have to put your hand on it, and it can sense a chance in the toque it's feeding in vs. what it's getting back (I think Ingineer described it very well, including sensitivity). If you had to resist autosteer, the "place hands on wheel" message would be pointless, as you'd be forced to resist, disable autosteer, re-enable it, etc.

If it was touch based, they'd need "touch" detectors (whatever that is) at every point on the steering wheel, how would the car know where you put your hands? Not everyone drives at 10-2 or 9-3 or etc.

I don't think it's touch based, just that it is extremely sensitive (literally, a single finger resting gently on it is enough) and I would not be surprised if it occasionally had false positives.

 

[andrewket]

Want a bet? There are already noises about time-based nag and we've SEEN screenshots with that stupid 45 mph limitation.

And if the software is planned for January release then it's probably way into the QA stage and is unlikely to be changed.

You realize the 45mph limitation isn't that the car will only go up to 45, but rather AP will only engage above 45. In other words, highway only. You can still go 70 mph.

 

[sillydriver]

Correct, you don't have to resist at all. You have to put your hand on it, and it can sense a chance in the toque it's feeding in vs. what it's getting back (I think Ingineer described it very well, including sensitivities, I'm not an expert, so if you have specific questions, search for his posts). If you had to resist autosteer, the "place hands on wheel" message would be pointless, as you'd be forced to resist, disable autosteer, re-enable it, etc.

If it was touch based, they'd need "touch" detectors (whatever that is) at every point on the steering wheel, how would the car know where you put your hands? Not everyone drives at 10-2 or 9-3 or etc.

Now that it's begun to nag during the last couple weeks, I've found a quick light tug and release with a two finger grip will satisfy it.

 

[andrewket]

Since I have seen the nag several times, and other people in the car with me have seen it as well (once it popped up while I was demoing Autopilot to some coworkers), at least for some Model S modes in the US, the Nag exists.

It is possible that it does not show up on some cars, but it does most definitely does on at least one car (mine). I cannot tell you about any other Model S out there.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't think it's touch based, just that it is extremely sensitive (literally, a single finger resting gently on it is enough) and I would not be surprised if it occasionally had false positives.

It's not a time based nag. The car nags if it's confidence level drops beyond a certain point. I've gone 40+ miles without a nag, and other times half a mile. It depends on the road, the turning radius, sun glare, etc etc.

 

[R²B]

Now that it's begun to nag during the last couple weeks, I've found a quick light tug and release with a two finger grip will satisfy it.

I find this approach useful to satisfy many nags. :wink:

 

[Max*]

Since I have seen the nag several times, and other people in the car with me have seen it as well (once it popped up while I was demoing Autopilot to some coworkers), at least for some Model S modes in the US, the Nag exists.

It is possible that it does not show up on some cars, but it does most definitely does on at least one car (mine). I cannot tell you about any other Model S out there.

(I assume we're still talking about a time-based nag, not just a regular nag), if so we'll have to agree to disagree without actual proof.

Statistically speaking the chances of one car having a time-based nag, on the original v7 firmware (i.e. this is not some new firmware that 1 person received), and the rest of TMC not having a time based nag is infinitesimally small.

The only argument that you could be made is that everyone has a time based nag, and everyone has extremely sensitive steering wheels so that the false positives counteract the time-based nag, and then Tesla fixed the steering wheel on your car and you can actually detect it. Then again Occam's razor.

I don't think it's touch based, just that it is extremely sensitive and I would not be surprised if it occasionally had false positives.

While I find this hard to believe, I don't have any evidence to the contrary, so I guess you might be correct.

 

[_TTT_]

Based on my experience, the time based nag works like this:

1) On roads with curves the car can detect whether or not your hands are on the wheel because of the torque they apply
2) On straight roads the car either cannot detect it or ignores it
3) When the car is looking for hand torque (such as on curvy roads or possibly other sub-optimal conditions), a timer is started and continues to count down while the car is in the mode of looking for torque. The timer pauses if you re-enter a clear road with no curves and continues when you hit curves again. When it expires, the nag pops up. At any point you can forcibly apply torque to the wheel and reset it. This reset works on straight road, curvy road, when the nag is on screen, or before it pops up.

I just did a long road trip and the time interval was very predictable through curves...I should have used a stopwatch to get some hard data On straight roads I can drive for a longggggg time with no nag but curves definitely trigger a predictable nag. For you SW guys out there, you can almost see the code for this - it's a great way of minimizing the intrusion to the driver when not needed.

Anyhow, that's just my experience in my car...YMMV.

 

[liuping]

if there is a time-based nag it's [a] at least 30 minutes and apparently not operational on some customers' cars.

I don't know the exact timing, but I know it is less than 30 minutes, because I've seen it on my commute to work, which has less than 20 minutes of Freeway driving.

Since most of the time a gently rest on hand on the wheel, it does not occur at all. I'll try to go totally hands free for the next few days for the whole freeway commute and see if I can get a more precise time.

For all I know the car has different nag times based on locations and freeway conditions, or it is learning and changing all the time...

 

[Max*]

Since most of the time a gently rest on hand on the wheel, it does not occur at all. I'll try to go totally hands free for the next few days for the whole freeway commute and see if I can get a more precise time.

Look for a precise location too, please. I can believe there is a LOCATION based nag, but not a TIME based nag.

There are several sharpish curves where AP will always ask me to hold the wheel (always = the few times I've went there, so maybe not always for everyone).

 

[brianman]

For all I know the car has different nag times based on locations and freeway conditions, or it is learning and changing all the time...

I think there is a conflict in terminology, not a difference in vehicle experience here.

I think most people disagreeing with you are speaking of a "time-based nag" as "in clear conditions, is there a timer (that is less than 30 minutes)?" Those disagreeing with you say "no" to that.