You do realize there was virtually zero Public Charging when the Leaf and Volt were released, right?
Where did that chicken come from? The 120v egg at home. We were poor when I grew up, but we did have electricity.
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VW Fallout: $2.0 Billion for ZEV Infrastructure Buildout
- Thread starter RubberToe
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- Energy Environment Policy
You do realize there was virtually zero Public Charging when the Leaf and Volt were released, right?
Where did that chicken come from? The 120v egg at home. We were poor when I grew up, but we did have electricity.
I generally agree with you on the applicability of H2. However, I'm skeptical whether electrolysis can ever be price competitive with today's market priced gasoline, even when the energy input is "free". You still need a lot of expensive equipment to do electrolysis and compression. In this cost model the equipment will be idle when there is no surplus electricity, so the utilization percentage is lower which increases the overhead and carrying cost going into each kg of H2. Maybe being paid for grid services by rapidly ramping power up and down and negative electricity prices will cover the difference?
Well, some pretty significant news coming out today. CARB just sent a letter to VW requesting some additional information about their first proposed spending plan:
https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vsi/vw-zevinvest/documents/zip_supplement_request_052417.pdf
The text of the letter states that this was already verbally discussed in meetings with VW, and that VW is already preparing the requested material.
Highlights:
1. CARB wants more details of how the first 2.5 year plan fits in with the next three 2.5 year plans
2. More details concerning investments in disadvantaged communities.
3. Hydrogen plans in upcoming ZIP's.
4. Business model info, who owns the investments and who operates them.
5. Prepare a ZIP supplement with the requested information
5. ZIP Supplement to be posted on the Electrify America website, as requested below:
https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vsi/vw-zevinvest/documents/zip_supplement_request_052417.pdf
The text of the letter states that this was already verbally discussed in meetings with VW, and that VW is already preparing the requested material.
Highlights:
1. CARB wants more details of how the first 2.5 year plan fits in with the next three 2.5 year plans
2. More details concerning investments in disadvantaged communities.
3. Hydrogen plans in upcoming ZIP's.
4. Business model info, who owns the investments and who operates them.
5. Prepare a ZIP supplement with the requested information
5. ZIP Supplement to be posted on the Electrify America website, as requested below:
And now we are getting word of a GM Dieselgate scandal. Maybe GM will be kicking in the next $800,000,000 after VW's contribution. Sweet !
GM is being dragged into ‘Dieselgate’ scandal, customers file class action over ‘VW-like defeat devices’ in over 700,000 trucks
GM is being dragged into ‘Dieselgate’ scandal, customers file class action over ‘VW-like defeat devices’ in over 700,000 trucks
mspohr
Well-Known Member
It doesn't really matter that there is no 'defeat devices' in any year Duramax from 2000 to 2017. There is a temp window for the cold EGR, alternator engage, and DPF burn. That is not illegal.
Shapiro needs to first create a villain, market the crap out of it, then boom. No proof is required. Juries hate killers even if they are innocent.
Trust me, no auto company is exempt. It has nothing to do with diesels.
Does anybody REALLY believe that after the VW scandal, GM made and sold emission defeats? Lordy.
Every car will get it's Class Action crap. It's now part of our economy.
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mspohr
Well-Known Member
What you describe could be a "defeat device"... EPA and the courts will decide.
So you are saying that all ICE car companies cheat on all of their cars?
I think the problem is that these vehicles were made and sold before the VW scandal. VW scandal was 2016. These cars are from year 2000 and later. 2000 < 2016
(BTW, I don't believe that any of the automakers have stopped cheating just because one got caught. It's just the cost of doing business.)
Those pesky consumers. Imagine the gall of them getting upset because they didn't get what was advertised and are suffering from the pollution. They should just learn to sit down and shut up and live in fear that we might cheat them again.
It isn't clear to me yet whether the civil law suit against GM filed by non-governmental lawyers will amount to anything. GM subsequently issued a statement flatly denying the allegations.
The Fiat/Chrysler action was initiated by the EPA, I think, so I assume there is some substantial factual basis to it.
By my reading, none of this threatens the fundamentals of VW's actual first 2.5 year plan.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
No, a jury will decide, and politicians. No science or engineers necessary. Remember we get H2 from a lantern battery and two wires in a mason jar of water according to CARB and the EPA.
No, I'm saying every car company will get class action suits, even Tesla. It doesn't mean anything was actually at fault, it just means we need more rich law firms, we are almost out. If that isn't clear, call 1-800-BadDrug and they will clarify.
I custom tune Duramax engines and have torn them down to the last bolt. I know exactly what is in the emissions systems and when they are on or off. It show up in my logs clear as day. And they self test.
If it wasn't their truck, it would be their hip replacement, or cellphone brain cancer, or vaccination induced autism, or GMO cancer, etc, etc. Did you know that if you open a can of hair spray marked FLAMMABLE with a can opener over a lit stove, that you can get $1.7m for that knowledge?
Or heck, Porsche sells you a car you REALLY want. Hard to get. Only for experienced racers, not intended for actual street use. Lots of warnings. You run out of talent at California Speedway and kill someone. Porsche's fault, even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with the car.
The biggest threat to EV's and autonomous vehicles is Class Action Law Firms. We KNOW Li batteries are highly reactive and can develop thermal runaway. We know that not all situations in driving have a perfect solution, sometimes least damage or deaths is the best outcome.
There is no such thing as acceptable risk levels anymore. It's all or nothing. Engineers must be perfect, but that's still not enough. If you make a tough choice, you will lose either way.
Yeah, thats my take on it too after reading the entire letter. The start of the period is just going to be delayed until the Supplement is sent to CARB, who will then presumably approve most or all of it.
I think VW has an out on the eventual H2 deployment. They can just say that they will evaluate the situation after 2.5 years and ramp up the H2 as best suited to the number of H2 vehicles deployed WRT battery vehicles deployed. There should be a pretty compelling case made that a minimal H2 investment should be made. Maybe even CARB will see the light by then.
The below seems pretty easy to satisfy...
RT
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But not really for the first 2.5 year plan. They basically just asked them to include fuel cell cars in their public outreach ads.
Yup, 6th largest economy in the world, fastest growing job market in the U.S. since the last recession, terrible business climate. All 40 million people about to leave because of this terribly poor governance. Uh Huh...
RT
Yup, 6th largest economy in the world, fastest growing job market in the U.S. since the last recession, terrible business climate. All 40 million people about to leave because of this terribly poor governance. Uh Huh...
RT
Eventually everybody will have 2 maids and a groundskeeper and their own personal Starbucks and McD's. Then all the jobs will be filled.
BTW - How did the 'temporary' toll roads work out? Or pretty much anything 'temporary' like sales tax % hikes. Or the promise to open more land for recreation if we paid more? Or cheaper electricity if we conserve?
California is the greatest state in the union IN SPITE of Sacramento, not because of it. Believe me, they tried really, really hard to kill it, but it's like crabgrass, it keeps coming back.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
I have not verified that statement but I heard a Tesla representative mention it at a recent CARB mid term review in Riverside.
BTW the quote applied to Tesla as the largest manufacturer in California.
If you follow the following link, and then click on the "Electrify America Charging Stations Announcement" download, you can see a press release announcing the opening of the first 8 DC fast charge stations as part of the VW settlement.
Welcome to Electrify America | Commitment
Note that these are not in California, but in Washington D.C. Here are the first couple paragraphs...
So the first 8 upgraded DC fast chargers are now up and running. And it looks like 50 total "stations" (whatever that means) will be in place by September.
So then here in California, CARB has rejected part of the VW plan and we are currently waiting for VW's response to CARB before any actual work starts getting done. In the best case scenario, VW provides an adequate response and the ball starts rolling. In the worst case scenario, the back and forth continues, and the calendar keep rolling along with nothing actually accomplished. Could turn into another example of government bureaucracy at its finest.
A good reminder of why Tesla charged (pun intended) down its own path for the Supercharger network. Its going to be very interesting to see at the end of the first 30 month $200,000,000 investment period what ends up getting built out, compared to Teslas Supercharger network.
The VW money cannot be spent on a "proprietary" (i.e. Tesla Supercharger) standard. So they are installing Chademo and CCS stations. In 30 months, after the Model 3 is out in significant numbers, there could very well be more cars on the road with Tesla connectors than all other connectors combined. And Tesla's Supercharger network will no doubt be larger still than any other DC fast charging network, despite VW's contribution.
If any other automakers decide to "opt into" building cars able to use the Supercharger network, I could easily see a path where the Supercharger network, by default, becomes the most used network for long distance travel. Simply due to the number of cars produced and the size of the available network. I always suspected this might be the case. It will be interesting going forward in the following 3 30-month spending periods how the remaining $600,000,000 will be spent in California.
If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?
RT
Welcome to Electrify America | Commitment
Note that these are not in California, but in Washington D.C. Here are the first couple paragraphs...
So the first 8 upgraded DC fast chargers are now up and running. And it looks like 50 total "stations" (whatever that means) will be in place by September.
So then here in California, CARB has rejected part of the VW plan and we are currently waiting for VW's response to CARB before any actual work starts getting done. In the best case scenario, VW provides an adequate response and the ball starts rolling. In the worst case scenario, the back and forth continues, and the calendar keep rolling along with nothing actually accomplished. Could turn into another example of government bureaucracy at its finest.
A good reminder of why Tesla charged (pun intended) down its own path for the Supercharger network. Its going to be very interesting to see at the end of the first 30 month $200,000,000 investment period what ends up getting built out, compared to Teslas Supercharger network.
The VW money cannot be spent on a "proprietary" (i.e. Tesla Supercharger) standard. So they are installing Chademo and CCS stations. In 30 months, after the Model 3 is out in significant numbers, there could very well be more cars on the road with Tesla connectors than all other connectors combined. And Tesla's Supercharger network will no doubt be larger still than any other DC fast charging network, despite VW's contribution.
If any other automakers decide to "opt into" building cars able to use the Supercharger network, I could easily see a path where the Supercharger network, by default, becomes the most used network for long distance travel. Simply due to the number of cars produced and the size of the available network. I always suspected this might be the case. It will be interesting going forward in the following 3 30-month spending periods how the remaining $600,000,000 will be spent in California.
If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?
RT
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