VW Fallout: $2.0 Billion for ZEV Infrastructure Buildout

[Jeff N]

One of the few new items of news that I heard during the Audi e-tron unveiling last night is that the SF Bay Area will get “40” Electrify America DC charging locations under the Cycle 1 plan.

Tesla today has 17 Supercharger sites in the larger SF Bay Area with a combined total of around 230 charging spaces (an average of about 14 spaces per site). Some sites have around 20 spaces and others are often 12 spaces.

The Electrify America locations are likely to contain a few highway-oriented sites with 8-10 spaces supporting 150 kW (a couple of those supporting up to “350 kW”) but most will be community charging sites with 3 to 6 spaces each and some of those may be 50 kW units. Of course, in urban areas like the SF Bay Area there are also many 50 kW chargers from other providers like EVgo.

Either way, it’s going to be a big boost for SF regional DC charging for CCS and to a much lesser degree CHAdeMO given Ekectrify America’s limited CHAdeMO support.

The Sacramento area will also have dense coverage as part of the EA Green City project there and Los Angeles, San Diego, and Fresno also have community charging coverage. Altogether, there should be roughly around 110 community charging locations with 3-6 charging spaces and about 50 highway locations (4-10 spaces) in California from Electrify America by the end of next year, according to the plans.

Even if the schedule slips by a few months there the Cycle 2 expansion will continue the buildup.

 

[RubberToe]

Very interesting development, in a press release from EA. IN order to help build out their charging infrastructure, they will tap into new funds supplied by carbon credit offsets. Here is the short version of what they will do. See their website and press release for more details:

Here’s how it will work: 1) EV charging systems will charge electric cars, reducing CO2; 2) the eligible EV
charging operator receives certified carbon credits based on this action; 3) those credits can then be
sold to a voluntary credit purchaser such as a company, government, or other entity that is looking to go
carbon neutral (e.g., cities, university campuses, utilities, and individuals), which in turn creates new
capital to help companies fund more EV infrastructure.

It will be interesting to see how much funding this generates. It would also seem like Tesla could do the same kind of thing too. Both EA and Tesla charge for electricity. Why couldn't both sell carbon offset credits too?

RT

 

[miimura]

I'm not sure it's exactly the same thing, but in California, the Low Carbon Fuel Standard pays the utilities money for the electric "fuel" used by their EV owning customers. This is the funding source of the PG&E, SCE, SDG&E EV rebate programs. It seems logical that the electricity used for non-residential EV charging should have access to the same funding source.

 

[TEG]

One of the few new items of news that I heard during the Audi e-tron unveiling last night is that the SF Bay Area will get “40” Electrify America DC charging locations under the Cycle 1 plan.
Tesla today has 17 Supercharger sites in the larger SF Bay Area with a combined total of around 230 charging spaces (an average of about 14 spaces per site). Some sites have around 20 spaces and others are often 12 spaces.

I *REALLY* wish that we didn't have all these different systems. All this site selection, installation expense, and maintenance for locations that support only certain type of vehicles.

For us Tesla owners, I wonder if Tesla will provide a CCS to Tesla adapter so that we can use those new stations if they are in a location more convenient than a Supercharging station?


This is like as if gasoline stations were separated by manufacturer. "Gas for Toyota here only". Keep driving... We need to find a gas station that has BMW gas...

It hurts EV adoption that the charging standards are not universal.

( Captain Obvious over and out )

 

[Saghost]

For us Tesla owners, I wonder if Tesla will provide a CCS to Tesla adapter so that we can use those new stations if they are in a location more convenient than a Supercharging station?

Provide? I highly doubt it. Offer to sell you for a few hundred, maybe - if they can get past the regulatory part.

CCS was introduced by a bunch of companies who didn't have DCFC capable EVs in the wild after CHAdeMO had been on the market for a few years, and around the time Supercharging was announced - and the folks writing the standard specifically wrote into it no adapters are allowed, which I'm certain was intended to erase competitor's leads. They had enough political clout to make it mandatory in several markets as "the" standard, too.

I have absolutely no doubt Tesla can make a perfectly safe and functional adapter for CCS for Tesla cars (I'd lay odds they have a prototype or two in the labs somewhere already,) but if they can't change the official policy on adapters, I doubt they'll market it to the public. They did join the standard body in charge of it a couple years ago, though.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I *REALLY* wish that we didn't have all these different systems. All this site selection, installation expense, and maintenance for locations that support only certain type of vehicles.

For us Tesla owners, I wonder if Tesla will provide a CCS to Tesla adapter so that we can use those new stations if they are in a location more convenient than a Supercharging station?


This is like as if gasoline stations were separated by manufacturer. "Gas for Toyota here only". Keep driving... We need to find a gas station that has BMW gas...

It hurts EV adoption that the charging standards are not universal.

( Captain Obvious over and out )

Diesel + regular gasoline + premium gasoline:
- 3 separate fuel tanks
- 2 or more separate fuel nozzles
Infrastructure is not a problem.

CNG, LPG, H2: infrastructure is a problem.

What's the difference?
Difference is that manufacturers aren't yet committed to selling those vehicles in large numbers.

The only problem with charging infrastructure is that BEVs have been too expensive and manufacturers haven't been committed to infrastructure.

 

[Saghost]

Diesel + regular gasoline + premium gasoline:
- 3 separate fuel tanks
- 2 or more separate fuel nozzles
Infrastructure is not a problem.

CNG, LPG, H2: infrastructure is a problem.

What's the difference?
Difference is that manufacturers aren't yet committed to selling those vehicles in large numbers.

The only problem with charging infrastructure is that BEVs have been too expensive and manufacturers haven't been committed to infrastructure.

Valid point. And unlike the gas station above, almost all of the expensive parts can be the same for any DCFC system - the big, heavy electronics that take grid power and make high voltage DC.

It would be fairly easy and should be only a small increment to the cost to have a single box feeding three (or more) different plugs, each speaking the correct language to the different cars (you could only have one car charging from one of the three at a time, of course - in addition to the circuit capacity, the DC output voltage is custom tailored to the current car and SoC.)

 

[RubberToe]

I *REALLY* wish that we didn't have all these different systems. All this site selection, installation expense, and maintenance for locations that support only certain type of vehicles...

For Tesla owners, its no problem at all. You use Superchargers for long distance travel, and L2 anywhere else. Tesla destination chargers are icing (no pun intended) on the cake.

For buyers of other EVs, it is a problem. You can't access Tesla's Supercharger network, and are left with whatever charging stations end up getting built by whatever entity happens to be installing them wherever for whatever reason (Whatever ! ! !). A big hodgepodge of different connectors and charging speeds, as well as payment systems. Good Luck!

As this plays out over the next couple years, its going to do nothing more than incentivize people to buy Teslas. Whats the problem with that again .

RT

 

[Jeff N]

CCS was introduced by a bunch of companies who didn't have DCFC capable EVs in the wild...... and the folks writing the standard specifically wrote into it no adapters are allowed

I wonder if this is just an urban legend. I’ve never seen any specification language prohibiting CCS adapters. I’d love to see a citation to where it says that.

I’m not denying that there is such language. I’ve just never seen it myself.

 

[miimura]

I wonder if this is just an urban legend. I’ve never seen any specification language prohibiting CCS adapters. I’d love to see a citation to where it says that.

I’m not denying that there is such language. I’ve just never seen it myself.

I am much more inclined to believe that it is a real regulation in Europe, but I am pretty sure that Tesla would be allowed to make a CCS adapter for their proprietary North American vehicle inlet and sell it in North America.

 

[TEG]

Tesla CCS fast charging adapter?

Can a CCS adapter for Tesla be technically made? Yes.
Is there anything legal preventing that? No.
Is anything in the protocol causing it to not be feasible? No.
Is the power flow different between Tesla 1 wire CAN and CCS? No.
Is CCS dead protocol? No. All US and European manufacturers make solely CCS cars now, not just VW (check Chevy Bolt)

As a matter of fact, it was harder for Tesla to make a Chademo adapter, because Chademo standard doesn't support precharge - so Tesla had to implement their own HV generator making 400V out of 12V, just to prevent contactor damage. Chademo standard relies on a diode in the station, while CCS and Tesla has active precharge prior to closing the DC contactors (so the charge state machine is more compatible with CCS).

CCS is much more complicated than Chademo. But once it is done, it is done, just costs a bit more on the CPU resources/performance.
The only drawback of a Tesla CCS adapter is that it would need to have it's own batteries inside to provide power for initial communication. Chademo charging station provides this power, so the communication can start, but CCS does not (chicken and egg - no power without power). This is not a problem in a vehicle of course, as vehicle has 12V battery always on. Small battery in the adapter would solve that.

Why won't Tesla make a CCS adapter? Like others mentioned, Tesla will simply put it one day on new cars. Want to have one? Trade your Tesla for a newer model.

Will others make a Tesla CCS adapter? Probably no.
We are planning to make one for marketing purposes, just to show it can be done, but I doubt we will ever try to sell any. It would be too cost prohibitive. Tesla Chademo adapter is so cheap because they made their own molds for it and spit out large amounts of them.

 

[TEG]

First Tesla connector added to a public fast-charging station with CCS/CHAdeMO

 

[TEG]

Tesla CCS Adapters? : teslamotors

EU directive 2014/94/EU Article 4.4 requires all DC high power chargers in the EU deployed or renewed as from 18 November 2017 to use the CCS standard. CCS will be required by law all over Europe in one year from now! Tesla may continue to install their own proprietary superchargers, as long as they also provide the standardized CCS alongside.

So, yes, Tesla will have to adapt and add CCS to the superchargers, at least in Europe.

 

[scaesare]

First Tesla connector added to a public fast-charging station with CCS/CHAdeMO

...against Tesla's will.

 

[Saghost]

I wonder if this is just an urban legend. I’ve never seen any specification language prohibiting CCS adapters. I’d love to see a citation to where it says that.

I’m not denying that there is such language. I’ve just never seen it myself.

Hmm. I've heard it so many times, often from folks that I generally assume know what they're talking about that I never tried to find it myself.

A little fishing on Google turned up what appears to be a copy of CCS 1.0 as of 2015:

http://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Combined_Charging_System_1_0_Specification_V1_2_1.pdf

There is no mention one way or another of adapters in this document, but that's hardly definitive since it mostly just points to bunch of IEC standards (which I've found some summaries for that may or may be complete - the documents are a few hundred dollars each - but I haven't seen discussion of adapters in the summaries of the more likely ones.)

I also stumbled on this during my search:

Adapter for CCS Combo 2 to CCS 1 Setec Power - China Chademo, Chademo Charger | Made-in-China.com

Random Chinese companies aren't particularly known for rigorous standards compliance, of course.

 

[SageBrush]

Very interesting development, in a press release from EA. IN order to help build out their charging infrastructure, they will tap into new funds supplied by carbon credit offsets. Here is the short version of what they will do. See their website and press release for more details:

If I am reading between the lines correctly, EA is finding it difficult to convince location owners to allow installations. Why can't they just pay more for the lease ?

 

[RubberToe]

If I am reading between the lines correctly, EA is finding it difficult to convince location owners to allow installations. Why can't they just pay more for the lease ?

Probably result in many fewer installations.

Looking a bit further down the road, any other entity (i.e. Porsche) looking to install new chargers at new locations will end up having the same issue. The low hanging fruit WRT prime locations will be taken by Tesla and EA. If Porsche really wants to have 800 volt charging using their newly announced fancy charging system, those will not magically appear at EA or Tesla charging sites.

RT

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

...against Tesla's will.

Yes, it's actually using Tesla CHAdeMO adapter hardware under the covers.

 

[Jeff N]

If I am reading between the lines correctly, EA is finding it difficult to convince location owners to allow installations. Why can't they just pay more for the lease ?

I assume they will if they need to. In California, they had already secured agreements for 71 out of ~160 planned DC charging sites as of July of this year. They stated their bigger problem was caused by confusion over recent state site design regulation changes and that were working to sort that out with the governor’s staff. Their original forecast schedule didn’t actually promise any highway DC chargers would be completed until next spring.

EA are actually running further behind schedule on their 240V community charging for residential complexes and workplaces. They largely handed that work off to some of their nominal charging provider competitors. I recently chatted with someone who’s company is getting EA workplace charging installed in the SF Bay Area.

Electrify America releases Q2 California progress report

 

[Jeff N]

There is no mention one way or another of adapters in this document, but that's hardly definitive since it mostly just points to bunch of IEC standards (which I've found some summaries for that may or may be complete - the documents are a few hundred dollars each - but I haven't seen discussion of adapters in the summaries of the more likely ones.)

I’ve seen hints that the alleged prohibition is in one of the IEC standards — most likely 62196 or 61851.

These standards hidden behind paywalls and written by secretive working groups really annoy me. The IETF has been hugely successful standardizing the Internet and it’s all done with freely downloadable standards and everything is done in public working groups.

I also stumbled on this during my search:

Adapter for CCS Combo 2 to CCS 1 Setec Power - China Chademo, Chademo Charger | Made-in-China.com

Interesting! Good find.

I have previously seen non-DC Type1 to Type 2 adapters for AC charging in Europe but that was the case where you bring your own charging cord and plug it into the charge point as they do in Europe.

The hints that I have picked up are that the use of adapter may be “banned” only on charging points that have permanently attached cables as they do in the US.