Watch Autoline this week on Thursday

[strykeroz]

His criticisms, primarily of the heavy and poorly designed body sounded plausible, Most of the other criticism on fit and finish etc. are hopefully remedied with staff training and line tweaks.

Agreed. It's unfortunately peppered with comments that are cringeworthy - like the one near the start where a power blackout for 2 days at home had him glad he didn't have an electric car...*sigh

 

[jimmyjohn]

Give it a decade, probably less, and these dinosaurs will be extinct.

 

[Sunlight]

I wrote a query on one of the many other related threads but it has disappeared into oblivion so I will raise it again!

Didn't Tesla employ an ex-Audi production engineer a couple of years ago who masterminded the A4 production line? I thought the whole idea was to sort out and avoid the very issues Sandy M talks about?!

After the MX ramp and initial problems with the MS and now the M3 I really hope that Tesla sorts out these basic issues out for the MY (and any other new cars coming...) Maybe Tesla has to follow 'industry norms' here?!

Personally I don't feel that the stuff pointed out makes the car any less worthy for a driver/owner (as long as it looks good and doesn't rattle/fall apart and reports on this score have been positive) But it does reflect on Tesla in image and profits.....

But it seems from all accounts that all the 'important' stuff (and stuff that is very difficult to change) is top notch so I wait patiently for my M3 (which I doubt we'll see before 2021/2 here in Africa)

 

[davidc18]

The video was worth watching. Love Tesla or not, everyone should watch it.

 

[bhzmark]

Agreed. It's unfortunately peppered with comments that are cringeworthy - like the one near the start where a power blackout for 2 days at home had him glad he didn't have an electric car...*sigh

I missed that as I tried to fast forward through the nonsense. Was that a Sandy comment? I would guess not as virtually every comment from the other guys was really a display of their ignorance or bias rather than anything informative.

If there are future episodes I hope they just find one guy to ask Sandy questions and otherwise not talk.

 

[TT97]

Agreed. It's unfortunately peppered with comments that are cringeworthy - like the one near the start where a power blackout for 2 days at home had him glad he didn't have an electric car...*sigh

I'm guessing he never tried going to a gas station during a power outage. (Some states require back up generators for gas stations but many don't)

 

[adaptabl]

I missed that as I tried to fast forward through the nonsense. Was that a Sandy comment? I would guess not as virtually every comment from the other guys was really a display of their ignorance or bias rather than anything informative.

If there are future episodes I hope they just find one guy to ask Sandy questions and otherwise not talk.

Those are concerns of the general public(right or wrong) that Tesla one day hopes to have as customers. Someone has to ask those type of questions. Moving from the greenies to the general public will not be an easy task.

 

[dhanson865]

Definitely think he was very good and insightful when he was in his comfort zone on the details of what was analyzed. Where he started to lose me was when he drifted into speculation. The worst example was in the last few minutes when he speculated that the number of cars in customers’ hands was only 6k when Tesla has produced 10k due to rework/quality issues. Unless Tesla is lying on their financial disclosures they only count cars that are delivered to customers. It’s an obvious error and a huuuge claim to make that 40% of finished cars are in a quality hold. It calls into question his credibility on his more speculative statements.

I thought it was misleading to say Tesla only put out 5k or 6k cars and not say Model 3 (even if he was understating Model 3, it's 5x the understatement when you imply total but leave out the S/X numbers). It makes it sound like he didn't think they got out 10k of any kind.

And right before that the host of the show said something like "they did 10,000 last year a whopping 0% growth. At least they are consistent". I think this was confusion between Model 3 sales this year vs Tesla US sales last year (see numbers below).

If you were assumed malice you could say that was scripted, that they planned to mislead. But then "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

Tesla Q1 2018 Vehicle Production and Deliveries (NASDAQ:TSLA) clearly says "Q1 [2018] production totaled 34,494 vehicles, a 40% increase from Q4 and by far the most productive quarter in Tesla history. 24,728 were Model S and Model X, and 9,766 were Model 3."

then they talked about counting how many left the factory but they might be in a parking lot somewhere awaiting rework.

again Tesla Q1 2018 Vehicle Production and Deliveries (NASDAQ:TSLA) clearly says "Q1 [2018] deliveries totaled 29,980 vehicles, of which 11,730 were Model S, 10,070 were Model X, and 8,180 were Model 3"

So no matter how many need rework they are delivering more than ever before. Easily 20% more than Q1 2017.

Tesla Q1 2017 Vehicle Production and Deliveries (NASDAQ:TSLA) "delivered just over 25,000 vehicles in Q1 [2017], of which approx 13,450 were Model S and approx 11,550 were Model X"

 

[SMAlset]

This video was quite interesting. Sandy Monro seems extremely experienced and knowledgeable, and offered what seemed like objective comments. (Unfortunately, Monro is not as articulate as I'd have liked. He tends to speak in shorthand and jargon, which made some comments difficult to parse.) His comments reinforce my growing sense that Tesla's real core expertise (battery pack, drive train, electronic controls) are well done by industry standards, but that their car manufacturing expertise is sorely lacking. Makes me wonder if they tried hard enough to hire enough of the right people with the expertise to design and build both the factory and the car. Or if they hired a consultant (like Monro, perhaps) to help them optimize the body design and the manufacturing line. Did Tesla hire the wrong folks? Not enough? Or try to do all of it from ground up with bright young "Turks" who worked only from first principles and not enough experience.

It was pleasing to hear Monro praise the handling -- he seems to think the chassis design works well, even if he was unsure why certain parts were made they way they are (such as the upper control arms he discussed).

Tesla was building their cars from the ground up with a team that was learning things undoubtedly as they went along with all the new robotics, battery technology, heavy on electronics etc. Not sure on some things anyone could have told them what to do since they were essentially creating something so different with new parts and configurations. All of which they continue to seek to improve. Of course some car aspects would be old-school, but sure it took even Kuka reps a while to help Tesla program in specifics to Tesla's production line for their unique needs.

Yesterday we were looking at the underside of the hood of a friend's new Model 3. It had off-centered holes and my husband thought that was pecular to design it that way. He thought it was likely needed for the robots to pick up and handle the piece. When Sandy made the comment during the show something to the effect that cars have to be designed up front to work with robots (and the impression I got from what he said was that Tesla likely didn't--wondering if Munro has even seen videos of Tesla's production line), I thought I'm sure Elon, Franz and team did do just that since I think robotics has been the plan for Model 3 and future models all along from inception. And no way is Tesla going to rip out their Kuka robots and stick them outside the plant like it sounds like Munro told GM to do with theirs some time ago. Franz worked at GM, Volkswagen and Mazda previously and understands the manufacturing process in addition to design. Where I think maybe Munro's emphasis is to build the cheapest car, I don't think that is the main approach that Tesla takes to their cars nor do I think they are ignoring the cost factor. One of the early take-aways I had from learning about the Model 3 and future vehicles was that Telsa was working hard design-wise to simplify the car's build like in the wiring, the air vents, etc. I'm sure Musk has talked about this simplifiction to profitability many times in the past. To me Munro's talk (and the fact he and team were so far clueless on some of Tesla's design decisions) shows that he doesn't really get Tesla.

BTW possibly somewhere in the pre-show portion of the video they said that Munro bought 2 Model 3s for the teardown. Both would have been fairly early production vehicles. They even commented that both had been delayed in delivery because Tesla had to replace some parts or something. Better that Tesla catch a parts problem (maybe supplier's part) before delivery than deal with it later in a service bulletin or recall, but have to say I came away from Munro's discussion on this as it was a negative for the company.

Given the Model 3 is only a few months in production at this point, it's still working through supplier issues, and like fit and finish, and the hiring and training of more line workers, it's something that will just be part of growing pains. The addition to Tesla of Grohmann Engineering with 3 decades of highly regarded experience in this field is just another reason why Tesla will only get better over time. For what Grohmann brings to Tesla, this was from Wikipedia: "The product portfolio includes machinary for the production of microprocessors and memory chips, airbag sensors, power steering controllers, as well as systems for the production of door and roof seals and lithium-ion battery cells and entire battery modules. Among other things, the company manufactures robotics that are used in the battery and electronics production for Tesla, Inc. at the Gigafactory 1."

 

[drawfour]

I'm guessing he never tried going to a gas station during a power outage. (Some states require back up generators for gas stations but many don't)

In November 2006, the Seattle area had a really big wind storm that knocked out power to over 1 million people. During this time, in the entire east side (i.e. east of Lake Washington), there were only 2 gas stations that still had power. People would line up for hours to get their tanks filled, and of course, they ran out of fuel pretty quickly. I was lucky enough that my tank was about 1/3 full, and I only went out a couple times, so I didn't need to fill up until after enough stations had their power back.

If I had an electric car, I wouldn't have been able to charge it, but it wouldn't matter much. It would have already had a pretty full charge because of always being plugged in at home. So it would have been better in that situation, unless I was out all the time running errands... Or if it took 3 weeks for power to come back on.

 

[adaptabl]

In November 2006, the Seattle area had a really big wind storm that knocked out power to over 1 million people. During this time, in the entire east side (i.e. east of Lake Washington), there were only 2 gas stations that still had power. People would line up for hours to get their tanks filled, and of course, they ran out of fuel pretty quickly. I was lucky enough that my tank was about 1/3 full, and I only went out a couple times, so I didn't need to fill up until after enough stations had their power back.

If I had an electric car, I wouldn't have been able to charge it, but it wouldn't matter much. It would have already had a pretty full charge because of always being plugged in at home. So it would have been better in that situation, unless I was out all the time running errands... Or if it took 3 weeks for power to come back on.

Those with a full tank of gas were better than you as they most likely have more range on a full tank of gas than electrons. Advantages both ways.

 

[drawfour]

Those with a full tank of gas were better than you as they most likely have more range on a full tank of gas than electrons. Advantages both ways.

Yes, but the vast majority of people don't fill up their car on the way home from work to make sure they have a full tank the next day, unless their tank was already close to empty. Most people wait until the tank is < 1/8 empty, most probably around the time the E light comes on. So the average gas car had less effective range than a fully topped up EV (and since this is the Model 3 forum, I'm assuming the EV here is a Model 3). The average gas car was probably slightly more than half full.

And since most people will plug in their EV every night, they will start the day with full range.

 

[gavine]

At 11:13, he talks about the BMW i3 gaps being perfect. Take a look at the gap on my i3 at the base of the A-pillar. I'm not one to worry about gaps so I never looked at the rest of the car, but if Tesla had a gap like this, they would be crucified:

 

[JoRey]

It sure sounds like they have to. Hopefully they will make some safety improvements for the workers also.

Seems like elon is close to ripping out at least some of the robots. Not a problem when you consider that those robots can be put to work in other lines. But, it seems Tesla needs to train their employees more in order to improve quality.

 

[JoRey]

It is often very difficult to have a mix of experienced engineers work with new text book engineers. Both groups bring good ideas but often can not work together. The new guys seem to have gotten the new stuff to work but ignored a 100 years of mass production experience.

They had similar issues when they worked with Toyota on the Rav4 EV. I still cannot believe that a toyota decided to electrify the Rav4 having the prius body and B Toyota sold it's shares. Tesla with a little of Toyota's quality control is exactly what Tesla needs.

 

[voip-ninja]

Tesla was building their cars from the ground up with a team that was learning things undoubtedly as they went along with all the new robotics, battery technology, heavy on electronics etc. Not sure on some things anyone could have told them what to do since they were essentially creating something so different with new parts and configurations. All of which they continue to seek to improve. Of course some car aspects would be old-school, but sure it took even Kuka reps a while to help Tesla program in specifics to Tesla's production line for their unique needs.

Yesterday we were looking at the underside of the hood of a friend's new Model 3. It had off-centered holes and my husband thought that was pecular to design it that way. He thought it was likely needed for the robots to pick up and handle the piece. When Sandy made the comment during the show something to the effect that cars have to be designed up front to work with robots (and the impression I got from what he said was that Tesla likely didn't--wondering if Munro has even seen videos of Tesla's production line), I thought I'm sure Elon, Franz and team did do just that since I think robotics has been the plan for Model 3 and future models all along from inception. And no way is Tesla going to rip out their Kuka robots and stick them outside the plant like it sounds like Munro told GM to do with theirs some time ago. Franz worked at GM, Volkswagen and Mazda previously and understands the manufacturing process in addition to design. Where I think maybe Munro's emphasis is to build the cheapest car, I don't think that is the main approach that Tesla takes to their cars nor do I think they are ignoring the cost factor. One of the early take-aways I had from learning about the Model 3 and future vehicles was that Telsa was working hard design-wise to simplify the car's build like in the wiring, the air vents, etc. I'm sure Musk has talked about this simplifiction to profitability many times in the past. To me Munro's talk (and the fact he and team were so far clueless on some of Tesla's design decisions) shows that he doesn't really get Tesla.

BTW possibly somewhere in the pre-show portion of the video they said that Munro bought 2 Model 3s for the teardown. Both would have been fairly early production vehicles. They even commented that both had been delayed in delivery because Tesla had to replace some parts or something. Better that Tesla catch a parts problem (maybe supplier's part) before delivery than deal with it later in a service bulletin or recall, but have to say I came away from Munro's discussion on this as it was a negative for the company.

Given the Model 3 is only a few months in production at this point, it's still working through supplier issues, and like fit and finish, and the hiring and training of more line workers, it's something that will just be part of growing pains. The addition to Tesla of Grohmann Engineering with 3 decades of highly regarded experience in this field is just another reason why Tesla will only get better over time. For what Grohmann brings to Tesla, this was from Wikipedia: "The product portfolio includes machinary for the production of microprocessors and memory chips, airbag sensors, power steering controllers, as well as systems for the production of door and roof seals and lithium-ion battery cells and entire battery modules. Among other things, the company manufactures robotics that are used in the battery and electronics production for Tesla, Inc. at the Gigafactory 1."

When Sandy points out something like taking 10-14 parts and welding them together when there are processes already for doing that part as a single fab that is a legitimate criticism.

Pointing to this elaborate upper control arm that for unknown reasons uses a more expensive injection molded process to fabricate it when everyone else would have just stamped it, that is a legitimate criticism.

Pointing out that there is a piece of metal zip tied onto that control arm for unknown reasons (they speculated harmonic dampening) that is a legitimate criticism.

Pointing out that the body weighs 200 lbs more than it should, when they have taken apart and sectioned segment cars from every manufacturer, completely valid.

As are the comments around Tesla choosing to go fast and hard and not do the soft tooling that everyone else in the auto manufacturing industry does because it could have cost them an extra 6-12 months and then they get bitten in the shorts by it.... all valid.

Now some of the peanut gallery comments that rubbed people the wrong way, I agree, they often indicate a lack of understanding, but as to the comments on manufacturing and quality I thought they were spot on from someone extremely knowledgeable about auto manufacturing.

 

[strykeroz]

It's unfortunately peppered with comments that are cringeworthy - like the one near the start where a power blackout for 2 days at home had him glad he didn't have an electric car...*sigh

In both scenarios you only need enough range to get to where the lights are still on to charge/fuel. The thought that you would be stuck with an EV more than you would be in an ICE is what makes that cringeworthy to me.

If you have a household battery and solar panels you could charge your car slowly in a blackout, and if you had jerry cans of fuel in your shed you could also fuel up your fossil. Not everyone would have those options, so you would be looking for another way to get around than either EV or ICE.

In November 2006, the Seattle area had a really big wind storm that knocked out power to over 1 million people.

A perfect example of a case where everyone without pedal-powered vehicles, are equallystuck. Bring on PV!

 

[EV-lutioin]

At 11:13, he talks about the BMW i3 gaps being perfect. Take a look at the gap on my i3 at the base of the A-pillar. I'm not one to worry about gaps so I never looked at the rest of the car, but if Tesla had a gap like this, they would be crucified:
View attachment 296213

Agreed. They tested one very early build Model 3 and contended that it applies to all Model 3s. Every car that comes out of any factory is slightly different. My Model 3 is perfect, as far as I can tell, and any imperfection that may exist is too microscopic to be of concern to me.

 

[alseTrick]

So he's saying, if Tesla designed it, but got someone else to build it (Magna-Steyr or whomever kinda like Apple design, but Foxconn builds), then Tesla would mop the floor. This sounds like what they're going to do with the Semi.

Wait what?

 

[seattlite2004]

Agreed. They tested one very early build Model 3 and contended that it applies to all Model 3s. Every car that comes out of any factory is slightly different. My Model 3 is perfect, as far as I can tell, and any imperfection that may exist is too microscopic to be of concern to me.

Hahahahha......Tesla's are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.