Sorry Hank. You are telling me what I will experience with my car based on what you experience with your car. It will not. I have a "90 kwh" battery that has 72-73 kwh of usable energy. The range is likewise diminished. Tesla may have created a wh/mile value which would yield the rated range. But it is not simply conservative. It is not achievable. The car, and Tesla, claim a rated range of 280 miles (now displaying 275) just as all the 90D cars did in mid 2016. Driving very conservatively in ideal conditions I can get about 220 miles of range. Driving normally my full charge range is 200 miles. Much less than 280. This is a non-trivial defect. And the cars display of range is concealing it.
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Watts Up? Help a brother out..
- Thread starter Gutch
- Start date
There was (is) a survey of Model S owners here on the TMC site. While it did not yield an exact answer to the question that you asked, it seemed to show that most Model S owners used about 320-350 wh/mile. A few reported values just under 300. Seems like aggressive or "spirited" driving could move that value well into the 400's. I believe that Tesla uses (or used) a value of around 280 to get their rated range numbers. A small minority of owners seem to be able to get there.
Beginning some time in 2019 Tesla began using a more efficient motor combination in the Model S, as well as a newer battery type. Energy consumption rates and range values should thus be better for these newer cars.
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From the class action complaint, case no. 5:19-cv-4596, Dkt. 1, ¶¶ 55-62:
D. Tesla Throttles Battery Charging Speeds and Manipulates Range Calculations
55. Upon information and belief, and by and through the further investigation of Plaintiff and counsel for Plaintiff, Tesla uses various formulas to determine what the rated mileage range for its vehicles should be. Upon information and belief, Tesla has used a calculation of 295 watt-hours/mile for all Model S 85 RWD vehicles, multiplied by the total amount of usable battery capacity to determine what the total number of rated miles are.
56. The relationship between rated range and battery capacity in kWh is well known in the community to be a fixed constant multiplier of 295wh/mi (for Model S 85 kWh RWD cars) and is not related in any way to how the car is driven or the environment. Upon information and belief, this fixed constant multiplier is what Tesla used or uses to determine the estimated mileage ratings for its vehicles. This fixed constant variable is relied upon when calculating the EPA range estimates that Tesla prominently advertises, represents, and displays to consumers, and can be seen as displayed on the “Moroney Label” that is displayed on new vehicles for sale.
57. Upon information and belief, Tesla has lowered the number for the fixed constant variable, which has the practical effect of giving the illusion that more miles are available. Customers like Plaintiff and the other putative class members relied upon the number of miles that Tesla represented to them. However, what they didn’t know after purchasing the Class Vehicles is that Tesla has the ability to manipulate the number that was used to calculate mileage in order to avoid having to provide warranty battery replacements.
58. Upon further information and belief, Tesla fraudulently and unlawfully manipulated and pushed out a software update prior to February 2019 (actual update date is unknown at this time), which contained changes to the battery management system software, by replacing the variable previously used for energy consumption, or, 295 Wh/mi. Upon further information and belief, the energy consumption constant was reduced to 276 Wh/mi, for subject vehicles which in effect, would artificially increase the number of rated miles displayed for Plaintiff’s car.
59. Upon information and belief, and by and through the further investigation by Plaintiff and counsel for Plaintiff, Tesla has used this 295Wh/mi constant to determine the numbers it provides to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and has also used this variable to calculate the fleet-wide average of maximum rated mileage. This fixed constant variable was also used to determine the EPA’s estimated mileage rating of 265 miles of rated range. The Tesla Model S 85 is advertised as an “85 battery”, however, it is widely and publicly known that the Model S 85 consists of a battery pack that contains approximately 81 kWh, with only 78.1 kWh available and usable for powering the vehicle.
60. Upon investigation of Plaintiff and Plaintiff’s counsel it has become apparent that Tesla has fraudulently and/or deceptively lowered the fixed constant variable and now uses a lower watt-hour/mi variable rate a lower watt-hour/mi variable rate. The practical effect of doing so means that the total number of miles in terms of maximum range for Plaintiff’s car will display a higher number. If Tesla had used the same fixed variable rate of 295 Wh/mi, then Plaintiff’s car would then be calculated as having approximately 204 rated miles. Instead, Tesla fraudulently and unlawfully lowered this fixed variable number in order to give the illusion that Plaintiff’s car had more miles at maximum range. Doing so gives Tesla the excuse to avoid its duty and legal obligations to replace the battery of Plaintiff’s vehicle, as well as other members of the putative classes.
61. Tesla attempts to further escape from its legal obligations by using confusing terms and relies on terms such as “Rated Miles” or “Rated Range”, when the actual term that Tesla should be using is Battery Capacity calculated by the kilowatt-hour (kWh). Tesla does not display the amount of battery capacity kWh on any user information display available on the vehicle. Owners are only given access to the displayed percentage and rated range as displayed on the vehicle display.
62. Using this data obtained from multiple Tesla Model S 85 vehicles it is clear that the battery in Plaintiff’s vehicle and Class Vehicles display their rated Range based on the BMS reporting the Nominal Remaining kWh minus the Battery Brick Buffer (4 kWh) divided by the discovered constant of 276 Wh/mile. This calculation has proved consistent with multiple vehicles.
If you look at the fuel economy.gov site, you can see the actual values, such as 33 kWh/100 miles or 35 kWh/100 miles which are equivalent to 330 Wh/mile, 350 Wh/mile, etc.
We have had four Model S cars and never had any problem exceeding the EPA estimates. They have averaged between 285 Wh/mile on the 75D (over 50,000 miles) to 314 Wh/mile on the 100D (over 40,000 miles). We had a Model X for a while and the consumption was much higher, around 360 Wh/mile but stil better than the 400 Wh/mile listed online.
Combined with our other Teslas, we have nearly 170,000 total miles and I think all of the cars have been able to achieve or exceed stated consumption numbers on fueleconomy.gov. We do live in Colorado so maybe the higher elevation and less dense air have something to do with that.
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Yes, if the car had lots of "spirited" driving, you could easily have large consumption values. Have you used the energy graph when driving to see how much energy you use and your recent averages?
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Well, I'm not sure what to tell you then. I also have a 90kWh battery (V3) and have no problem getting the full rated range (266 miles) when driving at ~300kW/h.
Yes, learning it now. It’s at 514. I’ve only put 25 miles on the car because I’ve been tinkering with it and the weather has been wet. But this morning all I can say is WOW! These cars are absolutely AMAZING. Idc about a few mile ranges here or there. I guess if you do long trips or commutes, then yes.
The power delivery is something I’ve never experienced in 49 years! Badass.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Just so you know, the Wh/m number changes A LOT based on your driving habits, the temperature, road conditions, lots of factors. Don't get too caught up with it unless you're trying to maximize the range out of a fully charged battery, then you want to try to keep it around 300kWh/m.
You'll see when you drive around town (short trips) that it can easily go way over 500Wh/m, I've seen over 1000Wh/m many times when just starting out. I pretty much ignore Wh/m unless I'm on a longer trip. And once you settle into a long trip on the highway, it will trend downwards into the 300s (that is, in the summer -- in winter, wind, Ludicrous, and hills can increase it significantly, well into 500Wh/m and less total range).
You'll see when you drive around town (short trips) that it can easily go way over 500Wh/m, I've seen over 1000Wh/m many times when just starting out. I pretty much ignore Wh/m unless I'm on a longer trip. And once you settle into a long trip on the highway, it will trend downwards into the 300s (that is, in the summer -- in winter, wind, Ludicrous, and hills can increase it significantly, well into 500Wh/m and less total range).
Go to the Trips tab and see what the lifetime Wh/mile are. If it's really high then the previous owner probably liked punching the accelerator.
Also on the Energy graph, you can change it from 5 to 15 to 30 miles and see how your average changes. As @HankLloydRight mentions, you'll see it should go down on longer trips unless you have a headwind, lots of rain/snow, etc.I'm sure early on in ownership your numbers will be higher as you test the car out and give lots of test rides. If the number of launches is reduced, your Wh/mile will gradual decrease.
I'm assuming you meant 540 wh/mile. That is quite high. But possible. Likely that is over a short distance of very aggressive driving.
Thanks for the fuel.gov reference. I had seen it before but hadn't noticed the kwh/100 mi figure. My car is listed as 330 wh/mile. That is indeed achievable. But is much higher than the 277 reported to me by a Tesla tech who was trying to make the case that my car and battery were in good condition. That I just needed to drive more efficiently. I did a long test trip once. I got consumption down to 305. Range at that rate was 220 miles. Much lower than the 280 that was displayed. Only possible cause is a degraded battery. Which other measurements confirm. All of this confirms that my cars display of range is concealing a degraded battery. And Tesla is denying that there is anything wrong, when there clearly is.
Early 2016 S 90D
I’m not seeing “lifetime” under my trips tab. Am I missing something?Go to the Trips tab and see what the lifetime Wh/mile are. If it's really high then the previous owner probably liked punching the accelerator.
I'm sure early on in ownership your numbers will be higher as you test the car out and give lots of test rides. If the number of launches is reduced, your Wh/mile will gradual decrease.
Sorry, I guess it doesn't show one by default. Many owners keep one or two of their trip odometers and never reset it. If yours was recently reset to factory settings then it might only have your stats since you recently picked it up.
Here, you can see my lifetime numbers. On my last car, I renamed Trip B to Lifetime and used Trip A for yearly stats. I never got around to doing that on this car.
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Electric700
Active Member
Gutch, congrats on your car! Hopefully it will help your ulcers go away, along with may be more vegetables and some meditation sessions. Daily meditation can be a good thing.
Hopefully it will help your ulcers go away, along with may be more vegetables and some meditation sessions. Daily meditation can be a good thing.Thank you, I had ulcers because I purchased sight unseen 3000 miles from me with a crappy sales staff! Not really ulcers, just nerves.
I usually meditate Friday nights at the pub, much better now.
I usually meditate Friday nights at the pub, much better now.
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