Norbert
TSLA will win
And in the meantime act as if it isn't possible in principle, and bash the Tesla connector system for it?
If I were Tesla, seeing that attitude, I'd explore all other options before bringing the Model S to Europe.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
And in the meantime act as if it isn't possible in principle, and bash the Tesla connector system for it?
If I were Tesla, seeing that attitude, I'd explore all other options before bringing the Model S to Europe.
The choice between Tesla Fast DC and CHAdeMO standards is not a choice between 90kW and 50kW. Tesla rates its current Model S plug and future DC charger at 90kW. The CHAdeMO spec goes up to 100kW. EVSEs for CHAdeMO are installed with 50kW because there is no car that can take advantage of more, right now. Tesla could install their 90kW charging network with CHAdeMO plugs if they want.
The point in CHAdeMO is, it's far easier to get one installed because it is an established standard and there are cars that can use it. Go ask any govt for subsidies for a proprietary charging standard - I expect them to decline to spend tax payer money. Ask any restaurant/shop/mall owner to install Tesla Fast DC. What if they already have/plan CHAdeMO?
Yes, in the UK there is the first country-wide HPC network. Model S requires an additional adapter to use it, and the second on board 10KW charger to make full use of 70A. That is, if the are not converted to J1772 in the mean time. Then, another adapter is required.
The point in CHAdeMO is, it's far easier to get one installed because it is an established standard and there are cars that can use it. Go ask any govt for subsidies for a proprietary charging standard - I expect them to decline to spend tax payer money. Ask any restaurant/shop/mall owner to install Tesla Fast DC. What if they already have/plan CHAdeMO?
Yes, in the UK there is the first country-wide HPC network. Model S requires an additional adapter to use it, and the second on board 10KW charger to make full use of 70A. That is, if the are not converted to J1772 in the mean time. Then, another adapter is required.
I've seen nothing which officially says that Tesla will support CHAdeMO or anything other than their new proprietary DC standard. Do you have a link to something that says different?
Given that Tesla seem to have backed away from their verbal commitment on 3-Phase are you not concerned that the Model S maybe unusable as a long range car in Europe?
I agree that people will pay for fast charging. However, that charging still needs to be in convenient locations because people will not wish to drive miles out of their way to charge.
To charge my Model S at locations which have the Type 2 connector (AC) which is being used in Europe. I need a adapter to charge there.
As long as there is no conformation from Tesla that there will be one, we shouldn't expect on to be there.
The big difference is that the Volt/Ampera are not real BHEV's. They have a 16kWh battery which you charge in a few hours. To short? The ICE kicks in
The battery of the Model S will be 90kWh, much more to charge.That it is not only Nissan carrying the load here. How do we expect Tesla to do the same? But let's keep the discussion about Tesla's DC network here: Tesla DC charging network.
What I don't like about the new connector:
* Propriety
* No 3-phase support
* No specs about the DC charge protocol available
Norbert
TSLA will win
The range of the Model S is sufficient to cover most driving with home/office charging. The occasions where people need to charge outside of that range are in most cases those where you really want 90 kW (if not more), and also because of the larger range, the Model S will need fewer charging points.
The situation in Europe doesn't seem any worse than in the US, and here in the US, I expect I will be well served by Tesla's range and charging options, *especially* for road trips.
The situation in Europe doesn't seem any worse than in the US, and here in the US, I expect I will be well served by Tesla's range and charging options, *especially* for road trips.
I think we will keep disagreeing about this topic
Please do keep in mind that the legal speeds on the highway here are 120 ~ 130km/h (~80mph), that eats battery.But, also read this post from tomsax again, he has some really good points: What charge port connector?
We are really going way offtopic here, let's stick to the connector only and not divert to other topics. I've said my thing about the connector, how I think it's wrong to come up with a non-standardized connector.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I think we will keep disagreeing about this topic
Possible.
You must have misunderstood: Whatever the speed, an EV with a larger range needs fewer charging points for a long trip.
As far as I can tell, Tom is arguing for a 20 kW network in the US. But which car except the Roadster (and the Model S with that option) would take advantage of it, and so, who will build such a network? The Level 2 chargers currently being installed max out at around 7 kW. I see an advantage in having 20 kW destination charging in addition to a DC network, but not instead of it, and I don't see that happening without any other EVs announced which could use it.
And in Europe, the time where you can just plug in for free at any 3-phase plug in any substantial amounts will sooner or later be followed by some mechanism to either charge money or limit access to customers. As soon as the number of EVs increases noticeably, you won't have enough free 22 kW plugs for all cars to hop from plug to plug, in any case, so someone will need to install something. Will Nissan and GM switch to Mennekes? Will there be J1772? What exactly will happen when? Not clear yet, but that future does not exist yet.
The connector and the infrastructure go together, and discussing one implies discussing the other, especially when it comes to the question of standard vs. innovation. However we have done a good amount of that, and could agree to disagree at this point if you want. I suspect the discussion will continue, with others, here or elsewhere.
Last edited:
tomsax
Member
In that post, I was mostly arguing against things I've been told by Tesla people based on information like the graph from 2009 in JB's slide show. I encountered a bunch of lame arguments in 2010 when I was trying to convince Tesla they needed to support J1772 charging for the Roadster, some of which was popping up in this thread.
My points relevant to this thread are...
- Low power (3 to 10 kW) Level 2 charging is great for overnight charging at home, but that doesn't diminish the greater utility of high power (19.2 kW) Level 2 charging on the road.
- Every EV should support 19.2 kW charging, or whatever the C/2 limit is for that car's battery pack.
- Level 2 infrastructure is cheap enough that it can be community funded. (We've lit up all of the interstates in Washington and Oregon with less than 100 Roadster owners. Imagine what 10,000 Model S owners can make happen, especially if it also benefits 200,000 LEAF owners.)
- We don't need a new proprietary connector to support 19.2 kW Level 2 charging.
- We don't need a new proprietary connector to support 90 kW charging, CHAdeMO allows for 100 kW.
- We don't need a new proprietary connector adding a barrier to using 50 kW CHAdeMO charging stations.
- It's orders of magnitude more expensive and logistically difficult to set up DC fast charging. Doing it twice is more than twice as hard.
I think the Tesla connector is cool, and even just did an interview where I told a journalist I thought the Model S connector shows what a monstrosity the proposed SAE AC/DC combo connector is, but I don't think Tesla is best serving their Model S customers by using a proprietary connector which is only a significant benefit if they actually build a comprehensive, worldwide fast charge network.
There will be a battle emerging for the low end of the market where lowest price drives higher volume.
Higher current chargers are more expensive so there is a reason why some manufacturers may chose not to put a fully capable charger onboard.
Tesla also mentioned the extra weight. If you have high speed DC offboard for Roadtrips and < 10kW is fine for home use there is some merit in the argument of avoiding the extra weight and cost. At least Tesla plans to offer the 20kW upgrade for those that really need it (or at least think they do.)
With that said, the current trend of 3.3kW (e.g., LEAF) is just lame. Everything should at least be 6.6kW since that is basically the lowest common denominator EVSE you can expect to find most places.
I think a significant number of the host sites will remain free for ever... all host sites want customers and electricity is cheap enough that they will be happy to supply it in return for some other paid service - eat, drink, sleep, play, park, etc.
The 32A 7kW 1-Phase "mennekes" Charging Stations that we donate typically resell for £250 ($390). A 63A 44kW 3-Phase version will be released early next year and will resell for less than £500 ($780). Once these products hit serious production volumes then you can expect the cost to halve. I fully expect that we will see "mennekes" Charging Stations everywhere.
It really doesn't matter because it's all the same protocol with a different physical connector. So yesterday I plugged a Leaf (J1772) into a "mennekes" Charging Station using a simple 'dumb' cable....
Norbert
TSLA will win
While I agree on this "if" (at least to a large degree), I otherwise think Tesla's connector is a significant improvement in terms of facilitating customer acceptance outside the enthusiast/early-adaptor group. We'll be living with these technologies for a long time, and just as Nissan and GM decided not to use the Roadster connector, I think it is the right decision for Tesla to their superior all-in-one connector.
Foremost, for electric cars with a range of the Model S, it is absolutely the right thing, outside home/office charging, to focus on DC fast charging below 1 hour. You appear to mention this only in passing, and that is where in my opinion you are missing the point.
Regarding your other points:
- With 10 kW, theModel S Level 2 charging is still 3x the Leaf, and 1.5x the Ford Focus and future Leaf. Level 2 stations currently installed have mostly 7 kW only.
- I cannot say anything about whether every EV should have 19.2 kW charging since I don't know the cost factor and other implications it would have. However there isn't an existing 19 KW network of significant coverage, and while I respect the community efforts being made, they don't seem to be something Tesla could rely on for future mass-market cars.
- Level 2 infrastructure is cheap in so far as the electricity supplied is of small amounts. Cars with increasingly large ranges will need small amounts in decreasing priority, except overnight.
- Level 2 connector: I'd prefer using Tesla's connector at home and for the UMC, and don't mind an adapter for the few cases where I might use one elsewhere (currently can't think of any, knowing my previous ICE driving habits). I would in fact have had no use for external Level 2 charging, other than overnight, in my whole life. This may be easily be different for Leaf and Volt owners with their much smaller ranges.
- 90 kW charging: CHAdeMO allows 100 kW so far only on paper as far as I know. No support can currently be expected from Nissan, Tesla would have to build 100 kW chargers itself, and would risk these (in principle) more expensive chargers then being occupied by Leafs using them at 50 kW only, which would have a chance of not being cost effective. Using CHAdeMO might involve fees and mean that Tesla (obviously a very innovative company) would be bound by consortium decision in the future. As one can tell from the Tesla connector, Tesla is going for different designs than this consortium.
- using 50 kW CHAdeMO: good point, although in the US none exists yet, and Tesla so far does not have much catch up to do. ANother question is if Nissan is fine with Tesla cars using CHAdeMo chargers (they might have conditions not seen favorable by Tesla). However, with Tesla building a 90 kW network, I consider this of secondary importance. Personally, I would welcome Nissan or other car companies using the Tesla connector for future 90 kW capable cars, though, and them building a joint network of 90 kW. AGain, given the capability of the Model S, a 50 kW network does not seem all that interesting for Model S owners.
- logistically difficult: The kind of thing Elon might excel at.
Altogether, the Leaf is a great electric car, and I'm happy that it exists and hope its owners enjoy it.
Nevertheless, I have both larger expectations as well as more confidence in Tesla.
Last edited:
Norbert
TSLA will win
Except for the DC ability, Tesla's connector is also J1772 electrically. So if that doesn't matter, then what matters? Or did you not know that?
"... if Nissan is fine with Tesla cars using CHAdeMo chargers"
The nice thing about standard connectors is that Nissan has nothing to say about who uses ChadeMo chargers. Anyone with a ChadeMo equipped car is on equal footing. Just like GM can't say who is allowed to buy Shell gasoline, or that their customers have to buy their gas from Shell.
EV charging station providers want all EVs to be able to use their station. EV owners want to be able to use any charging station. Propritary connectors throw a wrench in the works. Even at home I will want my new EV, or friends EVs to use the same charging station as my old EV.
The Model S connector looks great from a usability perspective, but it is PROPRIETARY, a four letter word.
GSP
The nice thing about standard connectors is that Nissan has nothing to say about who uses ChadeMo chargers. Anyone with a ChadeMo equipped car is on equal footing. Just like GM can't say who is allowed to buy Shell gasoline, or that their customers have to buy their gas from Shell.
EV charging station providers want all EVs to be able to use their station. EV owners want to be able to use any charging station. Propritary connectors throw a wrench in the works. Even at home I will want my new EV, or friends EVs to use the same charging station as my old EV.
The Model S connector looks great from a usability perspective, but it is PROPRIETARY, a four letter word.
GSP
Norbert
TSLA will win
As a customer, yes, but in order to get access to CHAdeMO protocol specifications etc, to implement CHAdeMO, it appears one has to be a member of CHAdeMO (not free) and is then bound by whatever rules they have (which I don't know).
(Which I guess means that CHAdeMO is not a completely open standard. Membership also needs to be approved at some level, at which I'd guess conditions can be imposed.)
Last edited:
As you point out, the important thing for us customers is the interoperability between various gas pumps and automobiles, not the process to design and build the gas pump or inlet. Same for charging connectors and protocols.
It costs money to buy SAE recommended practices and design and tool connectors, same for ChadeMo, same for gas pumps, but anyone can do it if they want to offer products to us. This allows us many more choices for fuel and automobiles than proprietary solutions do.
GSP
It costs money to buy SAE recommended practices and design and tool connectors, same for ChadeMo, same for gas pumps, but anyone can do it if they want to offer products to us. This allows us many more choices for fuel and automobiles than proprietary solutions do.
GSP
Similar threads
