What charge port connector?

[Kevin Sharpe]

Look what is happening in the UK.

I have no doubt that most subscription based services here in the UK are doomed. The only pay for use service that has any hope is Quick Charging at service stations that are located on major trunk routes. That is why we are working to educate the owners of these business's that only 50kW CHAdeMO and 44kW "mennekes" are worth installing. All other charging will be at home/work and range extension when parked for several hours (including overnight stays away from home).

Within a few years every UK Hotel, B&B, Pub, Restaurant, and Activity centre, will have multiple 32A (~7kW) AC Charging Stations installed. I believe that in most cases they will be free to use or covered by a simple parking charge.

32A AC Charging Stations are incredibly cheap to purchase and install - the 32A "mennekes" Charging Station that ZCW donates has a expected retail price of £250 ($390) when it enters mass production during Q1.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

They need willing hosts to shoulder the costs of individual installations.

I cannot see many hosts paying to install a Tesla fast charger for the occasional 45 minute visit by a Model S. However, I can see lots of hosts paying to install a 'free' CHAdeMO fast charger because of the sheer number of Leaf's and other cars on the road that can use it.

 

[dsm363]

Maybe if Tesla paid them to host the charger but that'd drive up installation costs. Tesla put it on themselves to build out a charging network (unless this someone becomes a standard) so they need to do it right. Just covering a few routes on the east and west coasts of the US won't cover all of their owners.

This has turned into a discussion about the Tesla charging network. Maybe a new thread is worth it.

I created the thread Tesla DC charging network for discussion about Tesla's future charging network.

 

[Leafer]

UMC 2.0 vs Chadmo

Does the Chadmo have any technical engineering advantage over the Tesla UMC 2.0?

If not, then Nissan ought to get on the Tesla bandwagon (or maybe Toyota?).

I just can't see petite women holding that monstrous Chadmo connector.

 

[TEG]

We don't know enough about the specs of the Tesla solution to say yet.
Maybe CHAdeMO could be more robust with that heavier/bigger plug/socket?
The only thing they showed so far is the UMC2.0 with thin wire for low(ish) current.
It will be interesting to see how a fatter cable (for 90kW DC) fits into that little plug.
I don't know why CHAdeMO decided they need such a big connector, nor how Tesla thinks their little one is acceptable. It seems like it is a big difference. Is Tesla's is as reliable and safe as CHAdeMO then 'nice job' making things more user friendly like that.

CHAdeMO can charge multiple types of vehicles (LEAF, iMiEV, etc.), so one can only hope that the Tesla DC fast is flexible enough to be compatible with anything that might interface to it.

But Tesla might try to keep it only for charging Tesla vehicles...

 

[doug]

Does the Chadmo have any technical engineering advantage over the Tesla UMC 2.0?

If not, then Nissan ought to get on the Tesla bandwagon (or maybe Toyota?).

I just can't see petite women holding that monstrous Chadmo connector.

To be clear, the UMC (Ultra Mobile Connector) 2.0, like the RFMC (Roadster Foundry Mobile Connector) or the UMC (1.0?) for the Roadster, is a strictly AC device. UMC refers to an entire unit which includes an interchangeable wall plug, an inline lump of electronics (which generates the control pilot signal to tell the car how much current it can draw), and the Tesla connector.

You seem to be referring to this new Tesla connector. We never had a proper name for the previous Tesla connector, but I suppose we could now call them the "Roaster connector" and the "Model S connector" for the old and new, respectively.

So to try to address your question, "Does the CHAdeMO have any technical engineering advantage over this new Model S connector?" I think it's too early to say. The Model S charging connector Tesla has shown is certainly more compact and Tesla is claiming 90kW which is more than most CHAdeMO installations are expected to offer in the near future. But the details of how this new Model S connector is to handle DC have yet to be disclosed by Tesla.

As to other car companies getting on the band wagon, that would require Tesla making their Model S connector readily available. Something they never made easy for the Roadster connector.

 

[mpt]

Level 2 charging is free today; the benchmark has been set... The cat is out of the bag. I think it's just a matter of time before the whole membership card thing is over.

 

[mpt]

I wonder how that connector's going to look when it's rigged for 90KW operation? At 500V that's 180A so 00AWG or even 000AWG wire; that's chunky. If I understand the table correctly, that'll be almost ½" across for each conductor.

American wire gauge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[widodh]

Level 2 charging is free today; the benchmark has been set... The cat is out of the bag. I think it's just a matter of time before the whole membership card thing is over.

I thought this thread was the best to reply to your post: Umc 2.0

I also had my doubts when I saw the connector Tesla designed. How the hell are they going get 90kW through that connector/cable!?

The standards in Europe are tight. For 125A you need a cable with a diameter of 35mm2, that is thick and heavy! To me the connector doesn't seem capable for that.

The CHaDemo connector is bulky, but it seems much better equipped for handling the 50kW (or 100kW).

I have my doubts if Tesla can get the connector certified in Europe for 90kW.

 

[TEG]

The only cable we saw was for UMC2 9.6kW.
I suspect that the HPC2 cable would be fatter, and the 90kW DC fatter still.
But, yeah, it is amazing if that little plug/socket can handle the same (or more) than the big CHAdeMO or other DC fast charge plugs which are MUCH larger.

I also suspect that they may be doing DC charging through a different plug/socket on the prototypes, and may not have fast DC through that new little plug/socket ready yet.

They did say the "little guy" was for both AC + DC, right?!
If for some reason the 90kW DC didn't work out they have the other flap on the other side of the car they could use for a dedicated DC socket...

 

[TEG]

Yeah, I am wondering that too. The cable could be almost as large around as the whole plug end...

 

[widodh]

The only cable we saw was for UMC2 9.6kW.
I suspect that the HPC2 cable would be fatter, and the 90kW DC fatter still.

True, the cable we saw was for 9.6kW max. But, the connector was not, it was "the real thing".

I also suspect that they may be doing DC charging through a different plug/socket on the prototypes, and may not have fast DC through that new little plug/socket ready yet.

Psst, they were swapping batteries during the event, not quick charging them

They did say the "little guy" was for both AC + DC, right?!
If for some reason the 90kW DC didn't work out they have the other flap on the other side of the car they could use for a dedicated DC socket...

Correct, I was told "the little guy" was for AC and DC, over the same pins.

They might indeed use another socket for the real 90kW, since I don't see 90kW going over that connector.

 

[Doug_G]

did say the "little guy" was for both AC + DC, right?!

Yes, they definitely did.

 

[Norbert]

They did say the "little guy" was for both AC + DC, right?!

That was my question as well, and the reply was that for 90 kW, the cable would be thicker. (And maybe a hint that the connector would look different as a consequence, but still the same interface.)

If you look at the SAE or Mennekes combo plugs, the DC thingys themselves aren't that large either, it's the whole "combo" arrangement, and the surrounding handle, which turns those things into monsters.

For us engineers or enthusiasts, these monsters might be acceptable since we enjoy technology, but for the average customer they will be scary, and the small elegant (and light) Tesla connector, will be an assurance that they can handle fast-charging with ease. In this discussion, I think there is a good amount of ignorance about what a significant advantage it will be to have such an "easy" connector in order to get the technology accepted by the mainstream. They'll think "Well, if that's all it takes... maybe fast-charging is a feasible solution after all". And that's what it is.

 

[Doug_G]

I wonder how that connector's going to look when it's rigged for 90KW operation? At 500V that's 180A so 00AWG or even 000AWG wire; that's chunky. If I understand the table correctly, that'll be almost ½" across for each conductor.

American wire gauge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Worse, the table is for solid wire; you have to adjust for total copper area, which means a stranded cable will be larger.

On the other hand, they could use higher temperature insulation, such as PTFE. I assume the insulation ratings are based on a generous safety margin, so the cable isn't going to be "boiling hot".

I would assume the connector would have solid copper inside. The maximum current carrying capacity of copper is 4000A/sq-in, so they can funnel the current through the smaller diameter connector pins as long as they make sure they won't overheat. Pretty easy to do when they're attached to a big block of copper.

Still, the DC cable is going to make the Roadster cable look like a spaghetti noodle.

 

[Doug_G]

For us engineers or enthusiasts, these monsters might be acceptable since we enjoy technology, but for the average customer they will be scary, and the small elegant (and light) Tesla connector, will be an assurance that they can handle fast-charging with ease. In this discussion, I think there is a good amount of ignorance about what a significant advantage it will be to have such an "easy" connector in order to get the technology accepted by the mainstream. They'll think "Well, if that's all it takes... maybe fast-charging is a feasible solution after all". And that's what it is.

The thin cable is for home use, and it will overcome day-to-day concerns about handling big heavy cables. On the other hand, the DC fast charge cable will be a beast, but since you'll only use it once in a while it shouldn't be a barrier to acceptance. People will gladly struggle with a monster cable once in a while to get a 45 minute charge on a road trip.

 

[TEG]

Will the new small plug/socket be physically strong enough for the bulk of a heavy gauge fast charge cable hanging off of it?
Part of CHAdeMO and SAE/Mennekes combo is physical robustness to handle the torque of the cable weight.
I think I saw some charger prototypes with a spool that holds some of the cable weight in the air. Similar to some gas pumps.
By the way, what's up with this cable handle on this CHAdeMO? :

Physical weight of the cable starts to become a usability concern for the fastest quick charging.

 

[TEG]

...I would assume the connector would have solid copper inside...

Somebody (other Doug?) I think said it was silver inside. Perhaps just a silver coating?
Silver is awesome for conductivity, (right?), so it could support a smaller connector?
But isn't silver an expensive way to go? And isn't it subject to tarnish / corrosion?
(Why not make it gold?!)

Anyways, I think Tesla may be trying to win the "smaller plug/socket" game by virtue of superior materials where possible.

 

[Doug_G]

Somebody (other Doug?) I think said it was silver inside. Perhaps just a silver coating?
Silver is awesome for conductivity, (right?), so it could support a smaller connector?
But isn't silver an expensive way to go? And isn't it subject to tarnish / corrosion?
(Why not make it gold?!)

Anyways, I think Tesla may be trying to win the "smaller plug/socket" game by virtue of superior materials where possible.

Silver is slightly (~7%) better than annealed copper for electrical conductivity. In comparison the difference between copper and aluminum is huge. It would help modestly, albeit at a cost. I don't think a coating would help; it would have to be solid.

Gold is worse than copper for electrical conductivity. It's used for coatings in electronics because of its corrosion resistance.

 

[Mycroft]

My understanding is that Tesla is using solid unobtainium for their cables. :tongue: