What charge port connector?

[Kevin Sharpe]

But it doesn't seem obvious (at least not yet ) why you are in a position to demand "extra treatment" as if you are in some kind of emergency.

Why do you not understand that the lack of 3-Phase charging prevents many of us from buying the Model S for use in mainland Europe? Maybe Europe is not an important market for Tesla... if that's the case then they can happily ignore our requests for 3-Phase and CHAdeMO.

Maybe it's a question for the stock holders.... does Tesla need to sell cars in Europe to be successful?

 

[dpeilow]

It's like this:

16A 3P can be found across the continent in all sorts of premises.
32A 3P can be found in many commercial locations and is the typical maximum curent level mandated by the new common EU standard (63A is an extension to it). It is right now being installed in service stations the length and breadth of the UK and I expect across Europe.

If you have three phase supply then making it available to EVs is as easy as installing this 380-415V MK Commando Interlocked Angled Socket 3P+E+N (IP44) Screwfix.com

This really is our equivalent of NEMA 14-50. Shall we not support that? Do you think that because 90kW charging is promised to be rolled out by Tesla, having the option for 14-50 charging when away from that has no use?


This whole discussion has got faintly ridiculous. It has no affect at all on Norbert what Tesla does in Europe and there is time for Tesla to provide a solution before the European version launches. In the meantime a thread tidy up is long overdue and we will have to start locking those which get dragged back in this direction.

 

[Eberhard]

i was just flying over to get the confirmation from JB Straubel for his promise given my at the Milan store opening. The DC fast charging is no real alternative because those station will be rare in Europe. The Tesla comes with one or two onboard charger 16A 3-ph (10kW) or 32A 3-ph (20kW) would be the perfect fit for those. But the powertrain architect told me, that the cannot be used on different phases. This would leave most Model-S with 16A = 3,6kW 24h charging to way.
I think the only reason is, that Tesla is very proud on their new sleek plug and don't want to change anything.
The only thing we can do, replace the onboard charger by our own. I found a producer of a 10kW charger at 600$

i got this informations

Hi Eberhard - yes, but you would have to use IGBTs and caps that are rated for 1200V as rectified 440V 3-phase will be close to 600V I think.

All other components would remain the same.


-
Valery Miftakhov, Ph.D.
Founder, Electric Motor Werks - High Performance Electric Vehicle Conversions
http://www.eMotorWerks.com

 

[TEG]

I think using an 'aftermarket' charger would fall into the 'could void the warranty' category.
Tesla probably does some proprietary things with the way they charge their packs.

 

[Norbert]

The 120V situation for US apartment dwellers is less than adequate for many as well. I wouldn't use it as an example of what works.
I think the expectation is that Model S should be a practical, versatile, uncompromising vehicle.
You wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, get a 300 mile range pack, then find you can only really drive ~120 miles a day because you can't recharge fast enough.

I'm not saying that 110V works at all. I'm saying it seems we have the same problem here, in terms of how I understand the situation with the information given here.

 

[TEG]

But being stuck with 120V in the USA in some situations is not the fault of the car... You just can't get 240V everywhere and no real alternative.
The 3-phase case in Europe is different in that would be that you have a potentially adequate socket, but the car doesn't let you fully utilize it.

Talk to US condo / apartment ( & house ) builders and tell them you think they should make all garages with 240V 40A outlets standard...

 

[dpeilow]

TEG hits the nail on the head.

 

[Norbert]

Why do you not understand that the lack of 3-Phase charging prevents many of us from buying the Model S for use in mainland Europe? Maybe Europe is not an important market for Tesla... if that's the case then they can happily ignore our requests for 3-Phase and CHAdeMO.

Maybe it's a question for the stock holders.... does Tesla need to sell cars in Europe to be successful?

One of the reasons is that we don't have 3-phase charging either. But more meaningfully:

a) 3-phase: I'm not even assuming that Tesla is not working on a 3-phase solution. Eberhard has once said they do, and now he says they don't. I don't have any other information than that. He might have misunderstood some important detail.

b) Meanwhile we have heard that Tesla engineers *are* working in a CHAdeMO adapter, but it is not certain yet whether that will be a product (offered at introduction).

c) There are indications Tesla is open to third-party solutions. What's the price of the Brusa charger?

d) I do believe Tesla will be working on a DC network.

e) European deliveries are still far away, and a lot can happen. Tesla is currently very much focussed on the US introduction, I assume.

f) Tesla hasn't even announced many details for the US yet.

g) Lots of european car manufacturers, along with GM and Ford, have just announced support for a common high-power DC standard. I'm sure Tesla will provide means to connect to european (Mennekes) DC fast chargers even in case it won't support 3-phase except through third party suppliers.

 

[Norbert]

But being stuck with 120V in the USA in some situations is not the fault of the car... You just can't get 240V everywhere and no real alternative.
The 3-phase case in Europe is different in that would be that you have a potentially adequate socket, but the car doesn't let you fully utilize it.

Talk to US condo / apartment ( & house ) builders and tell them you think they should make all garages with 240V 40A outlets standard...

Good point, I haven't said anything else than that. In fact that is the reason why I've been opposing some of the EV advocates here in the US who try to tell us 110V charging is great [EDIT: to some extent].

 

[Norbert]

This whole discussion has got faintly ridiculous.

Stop building up a strawman. I'm not saying what you think i"m saying. Doug has now indicated this thread is fine for discussing 3-phase in this context.

 

[dpeilow]

One of the reasons is that we don't have 3-phase charging either. But more meaningfully:

...

This is also all true.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I think the expectation is that Model S should be a practical, versatile, uncompromising vehicle.

That is exactly the point... with 3-Phase support I could and would travel anywhere in mainland Europe... with CHAdeMO support I could do that in most of Europe in a similar time to an ICE.

Without these I cannot use the Model S for 200+ mile road trips with the family which is the only reason I would buy the car. I am not alone with these requirements and several people on this forum have expressed similar views.... bottom line, IF Tesla need to sell in Europe to become a successful and profitable company then the stock owners on this forum might want to think about the ramifications of Tesla's lack of knowledge about non-US markets.

 

[Norbert]

This really is our equivalent of NEMA 14-50. Shall we not support that? Do you think that because 90kW charging is promised to be rolled out by Tesla, having the option for 14-50 charging when away from that has no use?

That doesn't make any sense. I'd like to make my position clear for you: I'm not opposing 3-phase support. That would be nonsensical, as would be opposing NEMA 14-50 support.

What I am opposing is the assumption that 3-phase support would replace, obsolete, or otherwise diminish 90 kW DC fast-charging support.

 

[doug]

Stop building up a strawman. I'm not saying what you think i"m saying. Doug has now indicated this thread is fine for discussing 3-phase in this context.

In so far as it relates to the Model S connector. This can include "will Tesla provide a 3 phase connector, or some kind of workaround, etc."

This is not the "Norbert has to be convinced of the need for 3 phase charging in Europe because he says it's not yet obvious to him" thread.

 

[dpeilow]

What I am opposing is the assumption that 3-phase support would replace, obsolete, or otherwise diminish 90 kW DC fast-charging support.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Tesla is all about no compromise. People are asking for the ability to hook up to the highest power they can find, which may come in the form of three phase, CHAdeMO or Tesla's 90kW system. All these are not mutually exclusive and should at least be on the options list.

 

[TEG]

I don't think we have the full answer from Tesla with regards to what exactly has been happening with the charging R&D for Model S over the past couple of years.
My guess is that some time was 'wasted' trying to coordinate with SAE, IEC and such until they finally decided they had to go their own way.
I also guess that they might be a little behind on having a 'global solution' ready. Since they may not have a coordinated, finalized strategy ready we may be getting different information from different people about the current state of affairs and future plans.

Just as a data point - they showed off the new UMC2, but not HPC2, and the UMC2 had prototype plug ends on them, not the universal plug adapters that they say will be on the production versions. So I gather they rushed together some prototypes to show off even though they aren't totally done yet. Also, with all the parts scattered around the factory demo, I didn't personally see any chargers so it seems like they are either too new, or in some state of flux as well.

My guess is that Tesla is all too aware of these mainland Europe charging concerns, they value that market, but they just don't have their final answer ready yet.
I see a few possible ways out of this:
#1: A small / cheap portable 3 phase to DC adapter that you can take with you on road trips.
or
#2: An alternative charger option so that you can order the car with a 3-phase capable charger option for European customers only. It would likely need to come with a different socket on the car that supports 3-phase, which could mean adapters to UMC2 / HPC2, or alternate versions of those that have the 3-phase type plug end even though you might only use it for 1 phase sometimes.
or
#3: They really do manage to install 90kW Tesla style DC fast chargers in enough global public locations to satisfy their customers.
& They also provide a home 3phase to DC charger that can do 10kW through the DC socket.
(I think this would be the preferred option, but many of us are dubious that they could pull this off.)
[ Note, with this option you could almost get away with having no charger in the car at all !]
or
#4: They provide DC adapters for CHAdeMO and/or Mennekes/J1772 DC Combo plugs so that Model S can charge off of upcoming shared, public DC infrastructure instead of public 3-phase AC.

 

[Norbert]

In so far as it relates to the Model S connector. This can include "will Tesla provide a 3 phase connector, or some kind of workaround, etc."

This is not the "Norbert has to be convinced of the need for 3 phase charging in Europe because he says it's not yet obvious to him" thread.

From my point of view the question relevant to the Model S connector is whether (in case the connector will be the same for Europe, which I do not take for granted at all) the connector is able to give similar driving options as it does in the US. So far it seems it comes somewhat close, unless I'm missing something, although europeans expect more because there are those two other phases available in many places.

I'm not sure whether you would see that as being a valid question on this particular thread.

 

[dpeilow]

Then that's the source of the misunderstanding.

In the US if you find a 14-50 you can plug right in. In many European countries if you want to plug in to one phase of a 32A supply you need permission from the utility (this was described in the early days by one of our Austrian members).

 

[Eberhard]

I don't think we have the full answer from Tesla with regards to what exactly has been happening with the charging R&D for Model S over the past couple of years.
My guess is that some time was 'wasted' trying to coordinate with SAE, IEC and such until they finally decided they had to go their own way.
I also guess that they might be a little behind on having a 'global solution' ready. Since they may not have a coordinated, finalized strategy ready we may be getting different information from different people about the current state of affairs and future plans.

Just as a data point - they showed off the new UMC2, but not HPC2, and the UMC2 had prototype plug ends on them, not the universal plug adapters that they say will be on the production versions. So I gather they rushed together some prototypes to show off even though they aren't totally done yet. Also, with all the parts scattered around the factory demo, I didn't personally see any chargers so it seems like they are either too new, or in some state of flux as well.

My guess is that Tesla is all too aware of these mainland Europe charging concerns, they value that market, but they just don't have their final answer ready yet.
I see a few possible ways out of this:
#1: A small / cheap portable 3 phase to DC adapter that you can take with you on road trips.
or
#2: An alternative charger option so that you can order the car with a 3-phase capable charger option for European customers only. It would likely need to come with a different socket on the car that supports 3-phase, which could mean adapters to UMC2 / HPC2, or alternate versions of those that have the 3-phase type plug end even though you might only use it for 1 phase sometimes.
or
#3: They really do manage to install 90kW Tesla style DC fast chargers in enough global public locations to satisfy their customers.
& They also provide a home 3phase to DC charger that can do 10kW through the DC socket.
(I think this would be the preferred option, but many of us are dubious that they could pull this off.)
[ Note, with this option you could almost get away with having no charger in the car at all !]
or
#4: They provide DC adapters for CHAdeMO and/or Mennekes/J1772 DC Combo plugs so that Model S can charge off of upcoming shared, public DC infrastructure instead of public 3-phase AC.

Here you find a

1: A small / cheap portable 3 phase to DC adapter that you can take with you on road trips.

http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/download_file/view/49/101/

 

[dpeilow]

Yes, a bargain at $20,697.