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Somewhat oversimplifying and paraphrasing, but I got the impression from some of the TM staff that they view the situation like this:
#1: People overestimate how much power they really need for home charging, given that the car will likely be parked for 10 hours or so.
#2: People will not be happy even with 3-phase AC for Road trips. They want higher speed DC charging when forced to stop and wait.
So their focus is on 10kW (home/overnight) and 90kW (road trip pit stop) and not so much on anything in between.
In neither of those cases do they need 3 phases going into the vehicle.
#1: People overestimate how much power they really need for home charging, given that the car will likely be parked for 10 hours or so.
#2: People will not be happy even with 3-phase AC for Road trips. They want higher speed DC charging when forced to stop and wait.
So their focus is on 10kW (home/overnight) and 90kW (road trip pit stop) and not so much on anything in between.
In neither of those cases do they need 3 phases going into the vehicle.
Believe me, I know what you mean. Been trying to keep the 3-phase stuff contained, but seeing how this is a charge connector thread it's relevant here (to an extent).
But like GSP said, many customers need 3phase to get even 10kW (not sure why some are finding that hard to understand). With only single phase some will be limited to a paltry 3.6kW to charge that 85 kWh (or so) battery pack. That would be nuts.
And we still don't really know what Tesla is doing with DC fast charge. Best I can tell they were charging the Alphas and the Betas with this:
http://www.rema-shanghai.com/en/Product.asp?ArticleID=34&Action=Show
A temporary solution, I'm sure.
Right, the problem is the connector they've shown can't support 3-phase. Which brings us back to why the Europeans are "whining" about it.
So, I guess my point is that you might get more traction with TM arguing the point that 3 phase charging is needed even for adequate home / overnight charging.
Most of the "up in arms" shouting has been over the need for roadside 3 phase which I gather Tesla thinks is a waste of time when you really want 90kW there.
Some stats on how many European homes can only offer 3.6kW (240V@15A?) max from one phase might be useful to be the main point of argument, not the need to support the full 63A Mennekes 3-phase. Perhaps they really should offer an alternative 2nd 10kW charger option as a 3 Phase 3x16A with a different connector on the other side of the vehicle for those European customers who have low current single phase home power, and really do need to use all 3 of their phases during overnight charging.
Man, this whole thing has me "sucked in" as well, and it doesn't even affect me directly at all...
JB Straubel told me finally, the Model S will support 3-ph only via DC fast charging.
The discussions is not only for Europe. this is for america as well. i am surprised how widespread 3-ph is in your country too. if you have the chance to charge at work, you would like it. How do you think is teslas 90kW DC charger being powered? with 240V 400A? surly not. Its 277V/400V 120A 3-ph.
i only hope, that Model S will not get the homologation for Europe without the "standard" mennekes 3-ph port. i still thinking about canceling my reservation for the signature edition if not. i upgraded my home powers supply from 3-ph 32A to 3-ph 48A to charge my Roadster with 32A single phase. if have not chance to get 100A single phase. i am tired to charge my roadster 6 hour when i could be done in 2 hours while being on a long distance trip.
But as a shareholder of tesla, i have to tell the CEO and CTO to do the best for the company to sell as much cars as possible. ignoring the situation in Europe may cause damage to the company. Sooner are later even America has to improve and upgrade the grid to best best technical standard. We are just moving towards HGÜ = Very high voltage DC transmission to transport power over thousands of km with little loss connecting Norge to Germany. Elon fires Rockets into space but fails to do a simple 3-ph 10kW charger. additional cost - none.
Norbert
TSLA will win
This (+1) and that it comes across as a "we'll walk over dead bodies for this" approach, while the european situation on the road doesn't seem any worse than the one here in the US, where we have to be happy if they install 7 kW chargers on the road. Even the US EV advocates have until recently often tooted the horn for 110V charging (somewhere around 1 kW). For on the road. If you know what I mean.
FWIW I think Tesla is half-right about fast DC charging. If it's available I absolutely want to use it. BUT at best they will get deployed only along major highways. There will be some need for low-cost but high-ish power charging along lesser highways.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Yes, and once the value and feasibility of DC fast charging is established, and that it works, then the rest follows easily. The other way around, things gravitate towards what is easiest for the utilities and the electrician, which is 7 kW and less.
William13
Active Member
I hope that Tesla engineers a solution for the Europeans. They have 6-12 extra months to do so. It makes sense that they need to satisfy European needs. Trying to push the Tesla agenda too hard they may truly resemble The old Apple Computers and fall behind the open source IBM PC computers.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I find it very difficult to follow posts like this. TEG was talking about 10 kW charging at home, but it seems now you are talking about charging stations on the road?
Most of the time these posts refer to charging on the road, but then once in a while a post says the real problem is charging at home.
Basically I think he is saying there are two main types of power available around where he lives:
3x16A <== Common, easy to find
and
3x32A <== Semi commercial locations only
With a one-phase charger you could then do:
3.6kW (common)
7kW (more unusual)
But if you had a 3-phase charger you could do:
~10kW (common)
~20kW (less common)
The latter two match the power specs of a Model S with one or two 10kW chargers on-board and would provide a meaningful overnight charge on either kind of socket.
But the current (one-phase) solution would leave many people stuck at the 3.6kW rate which would take about a full 24 hours to recharge a completely empty 300 mile model S.
A good rule of thumb may be to say that any good home charging should be able to completely recharge your vehicle in under 12 hours, so no matter how much you drove in the day you could go out again the next day fully charged again. If you managed to get the 32A installed to your house you would be barely OK. If you were stuck with the more typical 16A then you would likely run into situations where the vehicle wasn't ready (not fully charged yet) on some occasions.
3x16A <== Common, easy to find
and
3x32A <== Semi commercial locations only
With a one-phase charger you could then do:
3.6kW (common)
7kW (more unusual)
But if you had a 3-phase charger you could do:
~10kW (common)
~20kW (less common)
The latter two match the power specs of a Model S with one or two 10kW chargers on-board and would provide a meaningful overnight charge on either kind of socket.
But the current (one-phase) solution would leave many people stuck at the 3.6kW rate which would take about a full 24 hours to recharge a completely empty 300 mile model S.
A good rule of thumb may be to say that any good home charging should be able to completely recharge your vehicle in under 12 hours, so no matter how much you drove in the day you could go out again the next day fully charged again. If you managed to get the 32A installed to your house you would be barely OK. If you were stuck with the more typical 16A then you would likely run into situations where the vehicle wasn't ready (not fully charged yet) on some occasions.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Hmm, I was kind of hearing so far that 3-phase would be so great because you could make 22 kW (3x32A) possible almost everywhere.
But this would mean that Tesla should know from their european Roadster customers that they are commonly limited to 3.6 kW home-charging... are they saying that should be enough for the Model S? I'm wondering. I'd think there would be more to it, whether announced or not.
mnx
2018 M3P
How much would it cost to build a small DC charger that took in 3 phase? Something in the 8-15kW range (comparable to the output of the UMC/HPC2) for home charging in Europe?
3-phase 22kW is not that hard to make.
I'm getting my new house in a few weeks with 3x40A. I'm laying out the cables for 3x32A at my charging station, but during the day I'll probably charge at 3x24A, which is still nearly 17kW. At night I can go to 3x32A.
Almost every house gets 3-phases, but most of them are just connected to one. It's just a matter of a phonecall to your energy supplier and they'll upgrade you to 3x25A, 3x35A or 3x40A.
3x16A won't be a issue at all. 10kW is enough for a overnight charge, but 1x16A is not. We need 3-phase just to get the overnight charge done, not even talking about charging with Level 2 20kW.
BRUSA's NLG6 charger would be about 22kg and does 3x32A. Nothing official yet, but as you can see it's to heavy to be really portable.
Something portable is what you want, since all public Level 2 charging stations are 3-phase.
Check out my letter to Tesla: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S
I've explained everything in there why we want 3-phase.
But we can stop the three-phase discussion I guess, we'll just have to see how Tesla will respond to my letter.
I think that concept has been more or less discussed, requested, or assumed to be one possible option.
The concern would be over size/weight/cost. If they could make it small, light, and cost effective enough then it might be a viable solution.
Model S has so much more storage room than Roadster that size might not be such a huge issue.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Then it is more difficult to see how that is different to the US where 110V plugs are very common. On the Roadster, 110V allows 1.8 kW charging only. That's even half of what you apparently get by using one phase of 3*16A.
Those who live in apartments often cannot get 240V, and so some Leaf owners can charge only at 110V (and the Leaf allows only 3.3 kW charging in any case). The US has many who park on the street, overnight, as well, and they would have no access to 240V either. Their only possibility would be public access to DC fast charging on a daily basis.
And even those who can get 240V, often have it difficult to get it into the garage, and are often told that 240V 30A (meaning 7kW) is the practical limit without lots of extra cost. And 7 kW is apparently what you can get by using one phase from 3*32A, and 30A is also the usual maximum for public Level 2 chargers here (and there are only very few so far).
So in summary, it's not easy to see if your situation is any worse than the typical situation here in the US, except one can see that you have those other 2 phases dangling in front of you. But it doesn't seem obvious (at least not yet ) why you are in a position to demand "extra treatment" as if you are in some kind of emergency.
The 120V situation for US apartment dwellers is less than adequate for many as well. I wouldn't use it as an example of what works.
I think the expectation is that Model S should be a practical, versatile, uncompromising vehicle.
You wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, get a 300 mile range pack, then find you can only really drive ~120 miles a day because you can't recharge fast enough.
I think the expectation is that Model S should be a practical, versatile, uncompromising vehicle.
You wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, get a 300 mile range pack, then find you can only really drive ~120 miles a day because you can't recharge fast enough.
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