What charge port connector?

[GSP]

Promised 45 minute recharge, and can't do that for 300 mile range pack unless they get 90kW. The only way they see to do that is for DC from 400V+
Think that people on Road trips will find 22kW too slow.

90 kW is indeed much better than 10-20 kW for road trips. But, Tesla also offers 10 and 20 kW AC charging to North American customers. This is very useful for home and destination charging. Why deny European customers this option? I like VolkerP's suggestion to work on Tesla's reasons not to, and see what can be done to eliminate them.

GSP

 

[widodh]

The reasons for adding 3 phase support now have been discussed quite a while.

Another question for me is, what are the benefits for Tesla do DENY 3 phase support? Because once we understand that, we could tackle these points.

Well here goes my list of assumptions "why Tesla does not support 3 phase"

1) don't want to redesign the new Model S plug to support 3 phase
2) don't want to engineer new on board charging unit for 3 phase and 11 to 22kW
3) cannot allocate scarce engineering resources to that problem
4) only low numbers would be achieved (perhaps 25% of all Model S cars sold in 2013 & 2014), thus very high cost
5) don't want to loose face
6) would delay start of European sales
7) incorporation of 3 phase design elements would lead to redesign of car parts that are ready for production, thus putting general production deadline at stake
8) keep focus on North America market and not get distracted by anything.

Please feel free to add to that list and what you think of that positions.

9) They really don't see the problem in Europe. They underestimate the impact of the lack of 3-phase support

 

[Alfred]

9) They really don't see the problem in Europe. They underestimate the impact of the lack of 3-phase support

10) Tesla anticipates that en-route DC-charging will dominate from 22 kW, obviating the need for (rarely used) intermediate power charging.
11) Tesla has some other solution up their sleeves (mobile 3p AC->DC adapter, 11-22 kW?).

 

[Kevin Harney]

I think #11 seems quite likely to me !!! Tesla is not going to ignore the EU market and they announced the US plugs that will be easily converted to be used in the EU later when necessary.

 

[vfx]

I think it's #10 but hope for you guyz it's #11

 

[EV_de]

fresh Brusa charger spec's from e-carTec :

BRUSA_NLG6_Charger.pdf

Gewinner der Kategorie Energie, Infrastruktur, Anschlusstechnik

BRUSA NLG6

Die mittlerweile sechste Ladegerätegeneration aus dem Hause BRUSA arbeitet mit einer Ladeleistung von 22 kW und kann somit die typische Ladezeit für eine volle Elektroauto-Batterie auf 1-2 Stunden reduzieren. Dabei benötigt das NLG6 keine spezielle Ladeinfrastruktur, sondern funktioniert weltweit mit fast jeder bestehenden Stromversorgung. Durch verschiedene Maßnahmen (z.B. Bidirektionalität) kann es aktiv zur Verbesserung der Netzqualität beitragen („Smart Grid“). Dank seines hohen Wirkungsgrades und der umfangreichen Sicherheitsmerkmale, ist dieses kompakte Schnellladegerät optimal für den Einsatz in modernen Elektrofahrzeugen der Großserie geeignet.

BRUSA: Home

 

[Tommy]

The Leaf charger is 85% efficient according to multiple tests (including Consumer Reports). I would expect the Tesla charger to be in a similar range - between 85 and 90% efficient. I think that this includes heat loss in the batteries during charging and any cable losses.

This means that a 10KW charger would put out 1000-1500W of heat. Think blow dryer.

It looks like you're attributing all of the loss to the charger. The 1000-1500W of loss is across ALL components in the charging circuit not just the charger. The closest device I can think of that would have similar loss to the charger is a solar inverter; these typically have 94-97% efficiency. Not nearly the heat output of a blow dryer.

 

[neroden]

JB Straubel told my, that he is sick about the discussion. The decision is made, the answer is "NO" but you can us DC with any external DC Charger i want (if they are compatible with Tesla). This was a harsh answer to me. I fly over from germany to see and ride the Model S. I payed 30.000€ and than this answer?

How can i be part of their success, if i have to cancel my reservation because of lack of understanding, what the europeans need? its not that i want 3-ph charging here, we need 3-ph charging here

Tell him "We cannot charge at home overnight without 3-phase; our local laws prohibit high-amperage one-phase. How do we plug Model S in to 3-phase at home?"

It is clear that home 3-phase support is essential for European models -- ask them what they're doing about it.

If they decide to simply delay European production so they have time to design 3-phase support, that's an acceptable answer -- more acceptable than condemning Europeans to 27-hour charging times at home. And it would allow them to stay focused on the North American market for now.

 

[widodh]

Tell him "We cannot charge at home overnight without 3-phase; our local laws prohibit high-amperage one-phase. How do we plug Model S in to 3-phase at home?"

It is clear that home 3-phase support is essential for European models -- ask them what they're doing about it.

If they decide to simply delay European production so they have time to design 3-phase support, that's an acceptable answer -- more acceptable than condemning Europeans to 27-hour charging times at home. And it would allow them to stay focused on the North American market for now.

That is exactly what my intention is with my letter: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S

Tell Tesla again, and in a nice way, that without 3-phase support we will be looking at very long charge times.

 

[richkae]

5 variables:
A = the cost to Tesla to develop 3 phase charger and connector option
B = profit margin on the 3 phase charger option
C = the number of customers who will buy the optional 3 phase charger option
D = profit per car
E = the number of customers who will NOT buy the car at all because 3 phase is not available

For Tesla to do it they need A < B*C + D*E
Apparently they do not think that will be the case.

Given that they think the network of fast DC chargers will exist - they may believe that fact will make both C and E smaller than you believe.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

don't forget that the 90kW DC Chargers will have a 3-Phase front end.... that maybe as simple as one charger per phase... just allow European drivers to install 3 x 10kW into the car at launch and then develop a smaller and lighter 20kW Charger later.

 

[Eberhard]

don't forget that the 90kW DC Chargers will have a 3-Phase front end.... that maybe as simple as one charger per phase... just allow European drivers to install 3 x 10kW into the car at launch and then develop a smaller and lighter 20kW Charger later.

Zivan is offering a 3-ph charger with about 9kW for around 1.200€.
Brusas NLG6 with 22kW price could be below 2.000€ when ordered in numbers.

Teslas onboard charger looks to be cheap, but lacks efficiency. the Brusa NLG6 is 95-97%. The Zivan only around 90%

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Zivan is offering a 3-ph charger with about 9kW for around 1.200€.
Brusas NLG6 with 22kW price could be below 2.000€ when ordered in numbers.

Great! any possibility that they will be compatible and approved for use with the Model S?

 

[Eberhard]

Great! any possibility that they will be compatible and approved for use with the Model S?

They will never get any approval for Model S. We can do it only on our own risk.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

They will never get any approval for Model S. We can do it only on our own risk.

sure... and that stops us from deploying it in public locations for all to use....

 

[rabar10]

Teslas onboard charger looks to be cheap, but lacks efficiency.

I don't know how you could substantiate that claim, seeing that nobody outside Tesla has any experience with or data collected when using/testing these onboard chargers. They weren't even used at the Beta Launch party. (And its efficiency is beside the point w/r/t this discussion anyways)

 

[EV_de]

They will never get any approval for Model S. We can do it only on our own risk.

So I can sell my Tesla charger that comes with the car on ebay , and buy a "european suitable" from BRUSA ..... :cursing:

Ohh wait, I have to drill a new hole, cause the ChargePort isn't wide enough for the Mennekes inlet ... :cursing: - again

 

[VolkerP]

They will never get any approval for Model S. We can do it only on our own risk.

sure... and that stops us from deploying it in public locations for all to use....

Not sure what we're talking about here.
possibility 1) use the BRUSA charger inside the charger module bay of Model S with full approval by Tesla. IMO highly unprobable.
possibility 2) BRUSA as an external DC source. compatibility with the DC charging protocol approved by Tesla.

I think 2) is the scenario on Kevin's mind. and Eberhard may favorize 1).

 

[EV_de]

possibility 1

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Not sure what we're talking about here.

sorry for the confusion.... I was just looking for a way by which we might encourage Tesla to sell us low cost DC Charging Stations while making them attractive to potential locations that will see many more Leaf's than Model S.