What charge port connector?

[widodh]

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Tesla is all about no compromise. People are asking for the ability to hook up to the highest power they can find, which may come in the form of three phase, CHAdeMO or Tesla's 90kW system. All these are not mutually exclusive and should at least be on the options list.

Indeed!

Single phase, 3-phase and DC charging. Those three together each fill some charging needs which brings you to a 100%

70%: home charging
20%: Level 2 3-phase charging (10 ~ 20kW)
10%: Fast charging (>50kW)

They can and will co-exist.

Btw, Eberhard, Mobile? 65kg!

 

[TEG]

Here you find a
http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/download_file/view/49/101/

Yes, as others are pointing out - still way too heavy/big/expensive.
Lets hope that Tesla (or someone) made some engineering breakthrough and will offer something at a fraction of that weight/size/price.

 

[Norbert]

Then that's the source of the misunderstanding.

In the US if you find a 14-50 you can plug right in. In many European countries if you want to plug in to one phase of a 32A supply you need permission from the utility (this was described in the early days by one of our Austrian members).

Ah, I thought Kevin (and others before) were talking about a J1772-to-Mennekes cable that could do this without problems.

 

[VolkerP]

What makes me flounder
- some info bits trickle from Tesla: "you will love the new charge port architecture". "sales rep indicated not cables but adapters". "completely hidden" and so on
- it is their second EV and they still don't get it right. 3.6kW for home charging is an artificial limit of the car, not of European electric systems.

 

[dpeilow]

Ah, I thought Kevin (and others before) were talking about a J1772-to-Mennekes cable that could do this without problems.

But in problem countries you may then find the public Mennekes EVSE limiting that to 16A.

 

[Norbert]

But being stuck with 120V in the USA in some situations is not the fault of the car... You just can't get 240V everywhere and no real alternative.
The 3-phase case in Europe is different in that would be that you have a potentially adequate socket, but the car doesn't let you fully utilize it.

And where you can get it you often have to pay for an installation of new cabling.

Talk to US condo / apartment ( & house ) builders and tell them you think they should make all garages with 240V 40A outlets standard...

I think there are new laws asking builders to do (or at least prepare) just that.

 

[Eberhard]

I was talking to JB Straubel in Fremont and requested to fulfill his promise fot 3-ph charging, but he denied an pointed to the DC interface. I think i have to travel again to meet again at the next general meeting in June 2012.
If Tesla is going to offer 10kW onboard charger, than I have to use it as an 10kW according to the standards of my country. If not, Tesla is been faulty.

There is no technical reason, even no financial one to do it.

 

[emq]

I was talking to JB Straubel in Fremont and requested to fulfill his promise for 3-ph charging, but he denied an pointed to the DC interface. Tesla is been faulty.

The EU homologation responable, prepare to include the charging interface in homologation.

Concequencies:

UMC > Instead of red 3ph CEE 32 plug,

> blue CEE 16/32 single phase plug,
with aktive Information to clients to country limits like 16A 230/400V for CH,
20A 230/400 V Germany, Austria, etc.

Model S, Asumption 90kWh accu.

Legal charging time 0-100% SOC: 90kWh 16A/230V > 3680W > 25h
Legal charging time 0-100% SOC: 90kWh 20A/230V > 4600W > 20h

8h Night Charge for 90kWh needs 11kW Charging > in EU Offboard DC Charging estimated 10`000 $ aditional cost for equipment with installation.

Onboard 11kW 16A 3x230/400V 3ph Charging estimated 1000 $ aditional cost to 1ph 10kW 230/240V charger.

Who wants to buy a 20-25h charging time car or spend estimated 10000 $ to charge in 8h ?

If anyone likes to help my ideas / swiss-english, easier to understand, please send a PM and i bring it in

 

[neroden]

#4: They provide DC adapters for CHAdeMO and/or Mennekes/J1772 DC Combo plugs so that Model S can charge off of upcoming shared, public DC infrastructure instead of public 3-phase AC.

This seems to be definitely planned. But it may not eliminate the need for 3-phase support.

EDIT: I suspect, given that European cars are *all* going to be delivered after a *lot* of American cars -- Euro Signatures will likely come after some of the US general production -- that Tesla has time to develop a 3-phase-ready onboard charger for the European market, which will probably not be available in the US market.

Keep pushing them to do so, though.

In the US market, 3-phase is only available in commercial or industrial places, where it would probably make sense to install a DC charging station, so the demand for 3-phase charging here seems low. The Euro market is another matter.

 

[neroden]

JB Straubel told me finally, the Model S will support 3-ph only via DC fast charging.

Bleah. Not only is that a bad move period, Tesla clearly *must* offer a cheap 3-phase *home* charging system if they want ANY sales in Europe. The charging-on-the-road problem could be settled if they expand their fast charging network enough, but the home problem? From the numbers you've shown it needs 3-phase.

In the US, 3-phase is available primarily in locations where you'd have to do enough installation work that you might as well install a DC charger -- 3-phase plugs are nonexistent. But not so in Europe it seems.

Do present these stats on European *homes* to JB Straubel again and tell him the Euro model needs an affordable way to charge at home overnight from 3-phase. Maybe he'll get the message. If not, try one of the other executives.

 

[TEG]

...#4: They provide DC adapters for CHAdeMO and/or Mennekes/J1772 DC Combo plugs so that Model S can charge off of upcoming shared, public DC infrastructure instead of public 3-phase AC.

This seems to be definitely planned...

What is your source of "definitely planned"?
The few people I talked to from Tesla gave no commitment. To the contrary there was a suggestion that they were resisting CHAdeMO thinking it may go away in the long term.

 

[Eberhard]

i really don't understand why Tesla doesn't want do support 3-ph charging. there is no technical or cost reason. instead of 2x 10kW onboard 3x 7,5kW connected to different phases, thats it. but even to connect the two onboard charger to different phases is not supported.

 

[dpeilow]

There's enough time for them to engineer a solution, so I don't think it helps to keep saying "Tesla are doing this or aren't doing this" until we know more.

Let's just put to them what we want to see, as Widodh is doing, and not keep endlessly speculating. It doesn't help.

 

[Eberhard]

JB Straubel told my, that he is sick about the discussion. The decision is made, the answer is "NO" but you can us DC with any external DC Charger i want (if they are compatible with Tesla). This was a harsh answer to me. I fly over from germany to see and ride the Model S. I payed 30.000€ and than this answer?

First, you bought a Roadster. Then, you reserved a Model S Signature. You are an integral part of our success.

How can i be part of their success, if i have to cancel my reservation because of lack of understanding, what the europeans need? its not that i want 3-ph charging here, we need 3-ph charging here

from Georg Blankenship

Dear Model S Reservation Holder,

Over fifty Tesla Roadster owners and their guests joined us recently to celebrate the opening of the newest Tesla store in Milan, Italy. Elon and I held a "customer chat" just before the event. It was an incredible opportunity to spend time with current owners. I loved being in the same room with over 100 loyal and committed customers, spouses, and friends. It was great!

The most enjoyable part was the question and answer time we set aside to hear directly what was on our customers' minds. We discussed everything from the potential of creating third party apps for Roadster and Model S to worldwide differences in charging infrastructure. It was very interesting to hear Tesla customers' priorities for us as a company.

Teslas knows the situation in Europe. But they ignore.

 

[widodh]

JB Straubel told my, that he is sick about the discussion. The decision is made, the answer is "NO" but you can us DC with any external DC Charger i want (if they are compatible with Tesla). This was a harsh answer to me. I fly over from germany to see and ride the Model S. I payed 30.000€ and the this. And than this answer?

If he's sick about the discussion, then we are doing something right It's on his attention.

Please, do sent those signatures! Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S

As MUCH as possible, that will sent a strong message to them.

After the Milan opening I indeed assumed there would be 3-phase support, but after seeing the new connector I knew we were screwed.

It is so simple, add L2 and L3 to the new connector and you are almost done!

 

[VolkerP]

The reasons for adding 3 phase support now have been discussed quite a while.

Another question for me is, what are the benefits for Tesla do DENY 3 phase support? Because once we understand that, we could tackle these points.

Well here goes my list of assumptions "why Tesla does not support 3 phase"

1) don't want to redesign the new Model S plug to support 3 phase
2) don't want to engineer new on board charging unit for 3 phase and 11 to 22kW
3) cannot allocate scarce engineering resources to that problem
4) only low numbers would be achieved (perhaps 25% of all Model S cars sold in 2013 & 2014), thus very high cost
5) don't want to loose face
6) would delay start of European sales
7) incorporation of 3 phase design elements would lead to redesign of car parts that are ready for production, thus putting general production deadline at stake
8) keep focus on North America market and not get distracted by anything.

Please feel free to add to that list and what you think of that positions.

 

[TEG]

Promised 45 minute recharge, and can't do that for 300 mile range pack unless they get 90kW. The only way they see to do that is for DC from 400V+
Think that people on Road trips will find 22kW too slow.

 

[dpeilow]

As has been said multiple times, no one is asking them to take the 90kW DC charge out.

From VolkerP's list I'd say it's 3 and 8 right now.

 

[TEG]

Well, not just offer 90kW for special circumstances, but also try to make it the norm for highway charging...

 

[widodh]

Promised 45 minute recharge, and can't do that for 300 mile range pack unless they get 90kW. The only way they see to do that is for DC from 400V+
Think that people on Road trips will find 22kW too slow.

True, 22kW might be seen as slow, but it depends on the situation.

90kW is indeed a fast charge and 22kW a medium charge. But if I drive to location X where I'm going to be for about 6 hours, 22kW will be enough to give me a 100% SoC before leaving again.

Like said before, DC and AC charging, low, medium and high, they don't mutually exclude each other.