What Wh/mi are you getting with AWD and P cars?

[Wooloomooloo]

Other than that, with no/minimal climate control you should expect about 300Wh per mile for your vehicle; it has a range of about 250-270 miles best case.

I don't know why so many Performance owners perpetuate this myth. With the climate off completely, assuming ambient temperatures above 55 degrees, you can comfortably get 230 - 240 Whr/mi. I spent some time in the early fall travelling between Brooklyn NY and Croton on Hudson (roughly 45 miles) which has some steady hills and you average about 45 - 55 mph (urban highway driving). Even with some fun, I'd get below the magic 250Whr/mi over the two way journey. In a RWD with 18" aeros, you can get well below 200 without trying to hyper-mile. On faster highways, I can't get below 250.

I agree that typically the car is more like 300 WHr/mi in normal use, but that should include climate control. I can sustain 280 Whr/mi at 70mph with cabin heat in my P3D/20" wheels.

 

[Nocturnal]

If I drive like a grandma in my P3D+ without climate etc. I've been able to hit the rated range or better. My normal average is closer to 400 though.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't know why so many Performance owners perpetuate this myth. With the climate off completely, assuming ambient temperatures above 55 degrees, you can comfortably get 230 - 240 Whr/mi. I spent some time in the early fall travelling between Brooklyn NY and Croton on Hudson (roughly 45 miles) which has some steady hills and you average about 45 - 55 mph (urban highway driving). Even with some fun, I'd get below the magic 250Whr/mi over the two way journey. In a RWD with 18" aeros, you can get well below 200 without trying to hyper-mile. On faster highways, I can't get below 250.

I agree that typically the car is more like 300 WHr/mi in normal use, but that should include climate control. I can sustain 280 Whr/mi at 70mph with cabin heat in my P3D/20" wheels.

This is impressive, and makes me hopeful. However, I can only speak to my experience over 600 miles.
1) It’s possible the rolling resistance of the tires reduces significantly after 1k miles. Other bearings/etc. may also break in a bit and have reduced loss over time.
2) I have quite a bit of up/down on my commute - San Diego is very hilly. I have total elevation gain of over 1000 feet on my commute with net gain of about 500 feet from work to home. This makes it difficult to assess how reasonably flat/steady uphill/downhill conditions would work.
3) Urban highway driving at 45-55mph is close to the optimal condition since air resistance is dramatically reduced by drafting.

I can get 170Wh/mile on my way to work if I am extremely careful. But on the way home I am at 350Wh/mile. This makes sense as the hill alone adds 750Wh potentially energy, which means it must be a minimum of 270Wh (+100Wh/mi) - but I also have some up and down (get up to 1000 feet) and at least 30% of that energy will be wasted due to energy slosh.

I was just saying what to EXPECT. It certainly is possible to do better than 300Wh/mi if you are careful. You just have to *minimize* your use of regen and never use the friction brakes above 5-10mph. And take the flattest route with minimal cumulative elevation gain. And keep climate control use under control.

But, in general use, if you don’t think about it, and use regen as a “crutch” to avoid anticipation of lights/etc., you’re going to be around 300Wh per mile in the P3D+ unless you have conditions which tend to result in better efficiency. Might be a little better as the tires break in - I don’t know that we have data on exactly how much that helps. And as you say, highway speed makes a very large difference and driving slower is important for maximizing range.

 

[maunstar]

If you want better: find an 18” wheel compatible with aero covers (or rig them up to fit - this is something people on this forum should discuss and figure out!) that fits the P3D+ calipers. Then put MXM4 tires on them. You’ll get 10+% better efficiency. Just the tires alone are the big change - aero covers aren’t going to matter as much. In winter in PA you don’t want to be running the PS4S anyway.

Thanks Alan. I'm not exactly a car guy before this but I imagine going from 20" to 18" with the lowered suspension might require a change in that as well, right? I asked my Tesla dealership about swapping the PS4S for Winter tires on the same Rims and they said it was $2000 (it's $4000 with the rims on their site) and I almost gagged. I think if I switched to 18" tires i'd stay there forever and try and sell the 20's.

Either way thanks for the response and I'll keep that all in mind and report back later. Jealous of your weather over there

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks Alan. I'm not exactly a car guy before this but I imagine going from 20" to 18" with the lowered suspension might require a change in that as well, right? I asked my Tesla dealership about swapping the PS4S for Winter tires on the same Rims and they said it was $2000 (it's $4000 with the rims on their site) and I almost gagged. I think if I switched to 18" tires i'd stay there forever and try and sell the 20's.

Either way thanks for the response and I'll keep that all in mind and report back later. Jealous of your weather over there

Do be aware that above 35-40 degrees or so, MXM4s will have inferior handling and braking compared to the PS4S, and may still not be great in winter. 60-0mph stopping distance is 125ft for the MXM4 and about 105ft for the PS4S (265 width) (still need a datapoint for the stock width here...will get some decent data at some point soon).

It's going to be cheapest to find an appropriate 18" wheel. There are discussions on this forum about exactly what fits the AWD & P3D+, and be aware it is different than what fits the AWD due to the reduced thickness of the rotor on the P3D+. The 20" wheels are terribly impractical, and sounds like you can't hit anything with them, or they'll bend. The 20" wheel itself provides minimum handling benefit (the tire compound dominates that). You should not need to make any suspension changes, though you do have to be sure that the wheel you choose will clear (again, there are extensive discussion on this elsewhere).

I guess you have a few options:

1) Cheapest is to stay with what you have and avoid driving in freezing conditions (PS4S is not safe in freezing conditions). This is ok if you're not taking any road trips and you aren't worried about your charging costs (which will be 10-15% higher than what they could be with optimal wheels).

2) Probably the best and most convenient is to get a second set of wheels that fit (18" for reduced tire cost), and put the MXM4s on them. However, you're not going to have awesome winter performance. But, you could run these year round. And sell the stock wheels & tires if you want. You might end up net positive if your wheels are in good shape. Sadly it probably won't look as good. You don't have to worry about aeros (though they will help a little), but maybe someone will come out with aftermarket ones at some point.

3) You could get another set of wheels with winter tires on them. The efficiency would probably be better than the PS4S but hard to say. You could run these in winter & the stock wheel/tires in summer.

4) Another good option is to get two sets of new 18" wheels and run high performance summer on one and winters (or an all-season winter) on the other. Then sell the stock wheels/tires. For road trips you might want a wheel with low rolling resistance tires like the MXM4s, though. It all depends on what is important to you - performance, winter grip, and range. These have to be traded off and the more wheels you have the more flexibility you have! But 18" is the way to go to keep tire cost down.

Personally I've done nothing, and am trying not to hit any potholes. But at some point I might autocross and for that I'll want 18" wheels for cost & durability (Qualcomm Stadium parking lot can have some potholes open up during autocross). But I'd also like a road trip car...and the autocross wheels will not work for that due to the sticky tires.

 

[chickensworth]

in the summer, i was able to get 270 w/mi with conservative driving (20 inch rims) on my commute with 110-115 degree temps and approx 1500' elevation change between home and work. Now with the temps in the 45-55 degree range, i'm only able to get 330-340... always on EAP between 40-60 mph. In the morning i was able to go 11 miles to work downhill at under 95 w/mi, now the best i can do is 155. the uphill climb is where things get really bad. i always knew colder temps dropped efficiency, but had no idea that mild 50 temps would plummet the efficiency so much... can't imagine living in sub-zero zones... are you guys getting 50 miles of total range or something? i'll try toggling the regen and seeing if that helps as some of you have posted.

 

[jjrandorin]

No extra points for figuring out what changed on both instances. It seems reasonable to expect that the typical P3D+ owner will have similar experience.

I want to try for extra points anyway!

1. You got accustomed to the acceleration and no longer hammered the go pedal to get that adrenaline shot (you got used to the car and drove "normally" instead of "zip ziping" everywhere?

I just took delivery of my Model 3 P AWD EAP yesterday, and drove the 55 miles home from the delivery center on the freeway. Average speeds on the freeway section from the delivery center to my house were 75-80 (speed limit is 70 on that freeway there). I was driving 75-80, with occasional "bursts" of acceleration to change lanes (and enjoy the car).

got home and looked at usage... 339 kW/ mile.

Its not like I havent driven decently fast cars before.. I am coming from a 2016 BMW 435.... but the tesla is...different... lol

 

[maunstar]

2) Probably the best and most convenient is to get a second set of wheels that fit (18" for reduced tire cost), and put the MXM4s on them. However, you're not going to have awesome winter performance. But, you could run these year round. And sell the stock wheels & tires if you want. You might end up net positive if your wheels are in good shape. Sadly it probably won't look as good. You don't have to worry about aeros (though they will help a little), but maybe someone will come out with aftermarket ones at some point.

So after looking around and finding some posts about TSportsline Rims, I found found a post on Reddit where these wheels have already worked for another P3D driver. Seems like look pretty good as well all things considered.

I haven't ordered yet but think I'll be going with Michelin Primacy MXM4 Tires and Flow One F1 Wheels. and either keep the other RIMs for the summer to go nuts on the road, or look to sell them. I'll have time to consider the options. thanks for your help Alan

 

[maunstar]

in the summer, i was able to get 270 w/mi with conservative driving (20 inch rims) on my commute with 110-115 degree temps and approx 1500' elevation change between home and work. Now with the temps in the 45-55 degree range, i'm only able to get 330-340... always on EAP between 40-60 mph. In the morning i was able to go 11 miles to work downhill at under 95 w/mi, now the best i can do is 155. the uphill climb is where things get really bad. i always knew colder temps dropped efficiency, but had no idea that mild 50 temps would plummet the efficiency so much... can't imagine living in sub-zero zones... are you guys getting 50 miles of total range or something? i'll try toggling the regen and seeing if that helps as some of you have posted.

I forgot to thank you as well. This was helpful information. I've been driving about 70 miles round trip trying to be conservative and I'm averaging about 340 wh/mi. It "uses" about 100 miles each day at least.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I forgot to thank you as well. This was helpful information. I've been driving about 70 miles round trip trying to be conservative and I'm averaging about 340 wh/mi. It "uses" about 100 miles each day at least.

@maunstar. Yes, it is important to realize that regardless of tires you may choose, climate control, particularly heat, is a huge factor. Use seat heaters primarily for modest cold, and the heat to just initially warm the cabin.

As a data point, I have averaged 305Wh/mi over the first 700 miles. And I have done numerous 0-60 runs in 3.3sec over that period. However, I try hard to not use regen, and definitely not the friction brakes.

But most importantly I am really frugal with the climate control, but I live in Southern California. However, I have not been cold. Without climate control at all, I would probably be close to 290Wh/mi, With ALL conservative driving maybe I would have hit 275Wh/mi. These are just guesses.

Main point is that the tires will help, but the bigger your efficiency hit from climate control, the less significant the tire swap will be (less help). You’ll still be better off but you’re not going to get to 250Wh/mi in the winter.

 

[maunstar]

As a data point, I have averaged 305Wh/mi over the first 700 miles. And I have done numerous 0-60 runs in 3.3sec over that period. However, I try hard to not use regen, and definitely not the friction brakes.

Damn I'm jealous of that! I've done 700 miles in my first week thanks to my commute and I'm at 345 lifetime, but the average temp has been around 40 degrees. lots of that driving has been around 30 degrees F. Thankfully no real precipitation yet to make slippery conditions

 

[chickensworth]

I forgot to thank you as well. This was helpful information. I've been driving about 70 miles round trip trying to be conservative and I'm averaging about 340 wh/mi. It "uses" about 100 miles each day at least.

FWIW, i've been playing around with the regen level and have been able to get my efficiency back down to around 100 on the downward leg of my commute if i keep regen on Low. Uphill, i can't really discern if low or standard makes a difference... haven't been able to drop that leg by any measurable number. i've also dropped my heater down a few degrees which may contribute some, but it's only in the mid-50's so i can't imagine the efficiency is that different compared to cooling my car from 115 degree temps in the summer.
I originally noticed the change in efficiency when i switched to V9 software... i suspected the drop was software based along with the 'increased regen' but it did also coincide with cooler temps.
anyone else notice a change when you udated software?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

i've also dropped my heater down a few degrees which may contribute some, but it's only in the mid-50's so i can't imagine the efficiency is that different compared to cooling my car from 115 degree temps in the summer

Hard to say. Heater is resistive and the AC is a heat pump so it's a lot more efficient (I see about 2kW max AC in my Spark, while the heater can take up to 8kW). It's unfortunate that Tesla doesn't provide real time kW consumption - would help users get a handle on this. If it's mid-50s in daylight, it's possible a few degrees would make a difference between the heat not having to operate at all after initial warmup (due to solar heating) and it needing to operate.

i suspected the drop was software based along with the 'increased regen' but it did also coincide with cooler temps.
anyone else notice a change when you udated software?

I haven't noticed any changes. I'm down below 300Wh/mi now averaged over 800 miles after a couple hours driving yesterday. Gradually been decreasing with time though I don't expect much more.

I thought the regen increase only applied to RWD but I don't know. In any case, I wouldn't be surprised that increased regen increases Wh/mi, if people change their driving style, coast a little less, and start using regen as a crutch. Precise modulation of the accelerator is important for efficiency.

When driven optimally, though, increased regen capability should only help. For that optimal drive, the only place it would help would be steep downhills where friction brakes were previously required.

 

[shrspeedblade]

It's pretty normal to see a drop in efficiency with the colder weather, I don't live where it gets really cold but still down near freezing at night and has gone from 227 to 231 the last month or two.

I remember from my time on the Volt forums, all the cries of anguish and "what's wrong with my car" that start up in November only to be replaced by "amazing efficiency numbers" in May!

Edit-sorry should have noted that mine is a RWD and not an AWD/P car, but the temperature effect on all BEVs should be similar.

 

[Vines]

I don't know why so many Performance owners perpetuate this myth. With the climate off completely, assuming ambient temperatures above 55 degrees, you can comfortably get 230 - 240 Whr/mi.

I am not sure how you manage to get these numbers but I am very curious if you are talking about freeway speeds or 45-55 mph roads. I think the majority of P3D owners are reporting what they see, not perpetuating a myth as you say. Its not like P3D owners are planning a wh/mi conspiracy.

A Better Route Planner shows similar numbers, if you look a the P3D setting (ref. 293 wh/mi @ 65 mph) their data agrees with other P3D owner statements. I challenge you to drive 65mph on flat roads for 2 hours (1 hour in either direction on same freeway) and show us 230-240 wh/mi on the 20" P4S (no drafting). Might take till after winter but please let us know. I have tried, I just don't see it happening with those tires, but would love to see how its possible, so I can emulate it. I am getting much lower numbers than 293 wh/mi with my new all season tires with narrow tread block, but getting there on the stock P4S blows my mind.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

am not sure how you manage to get these numbers but I am very curious if you are talking about freeway speeds or 45-55 mph roads.

Yeah, guess I will come out and say that 230-240 Wh/mi is nearly impossible with P3D+ with stock tires. This should surprise no one.

Might happen at 30-40mph steady speed, with traffic to draft off of, climate control off, no hills, 60 degrees, no precipitation, no wind. So might see it on an occasional trip with zero net elevation gain/loss, but not consistently.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In P3D+, ambient temp 65 degrees, no wind, climate control completely off (no fan!), no seat heaters:
About 17 miles freeway, 7 miles surface streets. On the freeway I was mostly I was doing about 75 keeping up with traffic. I was not drafting (rock chips!) but there was traffic on the freeway, so some help. I basically didn't use the brakes at all for the entire drive and on the surface streets I minimized regen by monitoring the display. No significant acceleration events, though I did not accelerate slowly. I would say the driving was pretty conservative. I hit very few traffic lights.

I got:
24 miles, 34 minutes (average speed about 44mph, but that's not average moving speed), 240Wh/mi

However:
360 foot downhill (so that is 22.5Wh/mi you have to add back in; it's about 1.5kWh per 1000 feet).

So that's a 262Wh/mi run with about 900 miles on the car. Better than I thought I would get, actually! I don't expect that I would ever see much better.

 

[chickensworth]

In P3D+, ambient temp 65 degrees, no wind, climate control completely off (no fan!), no seat heaters:
About 17 miles freeway, 7 miles surface streets. On the freeway I was mostly I was doing about 75 keeping up with traffic. I was not drafting (rock chips!) but there was traffic on the freeway, so some help. I basically didn't use the brakes at all for the entire drive and on the surface streets I minimized regen by monitoring the display. No significant acceleration events, though I did not accelerate slowly. I would say the driving was pretty conservative. I hit very few traffic lights.

I got:
24 miles, 34 minutes (average speed about 44mph, but that's not average moving speed), 240Wh/mi

However:
360 foot downhill (so that is 22.5Wh/mi you have to add back in; it's about 1.5kWh per 1000 feet).

So that's a 262Wh/mi run with about 900 miles on the car. Better than I thought I would get, actually! I don't expect that I would ever see much better.

I’ve been playing with my regen, climate and manually driving (EAP off)... got this magical number this morning

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I’ve been playing with my regen, climate and manually driving (EAP off)... got this magical number this morning

Ha. Pretty sure that was significantly downhill! You should look it up...or just do the round trip and give us the other number later.

It's about 1500Wh of potential energy per 1000 ft descent (perhaps it is not perfectly recaptured but part of it also propels you to the destination so it's not as inefficient as regen). So in this case, for example, if it was 500 feet downhill, you'd need to add 750Wh/10miles = 75 Wh/mi to your numbers.

 

[chickensworth]

I’ve been playing with my regen, climate and manually driving (EAP off)... got this magical number this morning

Ha. Pretty sure that was significantly downhill! You should look it up...or just do the round trip and give us the other number later.

It's about 1500Wh of potential energy per 1000 ft descent (perhaps it is not perfectly recaptured but part of it also propels you to the destination so it's not as inefficient as regen). So in this case, for example, if it was 500 feet downhill, you'd need to add 750Wh/10miles = 75 Wh/mi to your numbers.

haha... i pretty much roll downhill in the mornings.. i posted earlier that it was around 1500' but i just looked it up and it's actually just shy of a 1000' descent. I've been very conservative lately just trying to troubleshoot my efficiency woe's and improve my numbers. it seems the heater has been the biggest drain. I'm really surprised since it's not even THAT cold out... but once i dropped the inside temps, my efficiency improved 20-25 percent. The 69 is definitely an outlier.