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When will Tesla design and manufacture tires?

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Maybe Tesla should get into road construction, signage making, traffic signals, etc. Those are all important factors that can make autonomous driving more widely applicable and safer.

Another area Tesla could get into would be parking infrastructure, imagine if Tesla builds a bunch of cheap parking lots that are compatible with FSD outside of major city centers, so people can drive their Tesla into town, get dropped off, and the cars can park themselves a short distance away. Or even for city folks who don't have access to parking spaces, they can now own a car and not worry about finding parking every day.

I'm just 1/2 kidding.
 
Seriously? Since when is Tesla satisfied by limitations imposed on their vehicles by inadequate parts provided by others?

Tesla is limited in its 0-60 time by bad tires. Tesla is less safe than it should be (handling and stopping distance) due to bad tires. Tesla has less range than it should because of bad tires. Teslas fail more often than they should because of bad tires. Tesla's performance on ice and snow and in rain is limited by bad tires. Tesla pollutes more than it should (especially particulates) due to bad tires. Teslas cost more to buy and operate than they should due to bad tires.

Coming up with the right tire trade-offs for a Tesla is difficult. Mixing high performance, durability, comfort, and efficiency is something no tire maker does particularly well. And for Model 3 Tesla needs a reasonable price as well. So yeah, I think Tesla has been thinking hard about how to get better tires. And given how Tesla works, that probably means making them themselves. Tesla has no fear of vertical integration.
Seriously? Since when is Tesla satisfied by limitations imposed on their vehicles by inadequate parts provided by others?

Tesla is limited in its 0-60 time by bad tires. Tesla is less safe than it should be (handling and stopping distance) due to bad tires. Tesla has less range than it should because of bad tires. Teslas fail more often than they should because of bad tires. Tesla's performance on ice and snow and in rain is limited by bad tires. Tesla pollutes more than it should (especially particulates) due to bad tires. Teslas cost more to buy and operate than they should due to bad tires.

Coming up with the right tire trade-offs for a Tesla is difficult. Mixing high performance, durability, comfort, and efficiency is something no tire maker does particularly well. And for Model 3 Tesla needs a reasonable price as well. So yeah, I think Tesla has been thinking hard about how to get better tires. And given how Tesla works, that probably means making them themselves. Tesla has no fear of vertical integration.


I don't think the tires are that bad, and I don't think Tesla does either.
 
Tesla only does things in house when they see a technologically better way to do it than any supplier, or they can't find a competent supplier. Tires are a very specialized tech and the tire companies are very flexible about making custom tires if a car maker wants something different. While Tesla can make do some things in cars better than any supplier, they would be hard pressed to beat the cutting edge of tire technology.

Car tires are a delicate balance between many factors, which is one reason why there are so many different types. Specialty tires are easier in a sense, racing tires or snow tires only have to be designed for one environment and the various factors that go into tire design can be skewed for that one role. For all season tires, there is a dance between competing factors that need to be balanced and weighed. This affects the design of what going inside, the exact mix for the rubber, the tread pattern, etc. Getting all those factors right is not easy and everything is a compromise.

And as far as tires polluting with particulates, it is true, but just by the Physics of the materials involved, anything soft enough to distort enough to grip the pavement without stabbing into it and damaging it is also going to be soft enough to wear easily from friction. There really are no other paths.

Elon and his teams figured out that rockets could be built cheaper and could be made reusable. They also figured out that if you take full advantage of the tech electric motors gives you, you can lay out a car is a vastly better way than an ICE. This is looking at what changing a few things can bring. Elon looks at the Physics of something and if he figures out that it's physically possible, he then moves on to figuring out how to make it possible.

This approach has led to some tech that maybe shouldn't have been done like the falcon wing doors. They are cool looking, but the mechanism is incredibly complicated and they have been a problem for the X.

Tire tech today is probably out there on the edge of what can be done within the confines of Physics. So Tesla getting into the tire business would literally be reinventing the wheel. They might be able to match some of the best tires in the world, but it's doubtful they would beat them.
 
Tesla has specially designed tires for their cars. Hankook produces 92 million tires a year so they must be doing something right.

"Tesla has selected Hankook Tire as the main supplier of tires for the Model 3. Tesla finalized its deal with Hankook Tire after the electric car maker compared various samples submitted by competing tire manufacturers from around the world. The report also indicates that Hankook will be developing a special tire designed specifically to maximize range presumably as a result of reduced rolling resistance under normal load....

(Tesla) has even gone as far as designing a noise reducing tire technology with Continental Tire for the the Model S through the use of foam injection....

Hankook Tire produces over 92 million tires per year and is the supplier of original equipment tires to some of the world’s leading automakers, including Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, BMW, and soon Tesla"


Tesla selects Hankook Tire as main supplier for Model 3 tires
 
Tesla is limited in its 0-60 time by bad tires. Tesla is less safe than it should be (handling and stopping distance) due to bad tires. Tesla has less range than it should because of bad tires. Teslas fail more often than they should because of bad tires. Tesla's performance on ice and snow and in rain is limited by bad tires. Tesla pollutes more than it should (especially particulates) due to bad tires. Teslas cost more to buy and operate than they should due to bad tires..

You keep saying existing tires are 'Bad'. Yet you have no basis for calling them bad. Just because they are the limiting factor does not mean they are a bad design or that significant improvements are even possible. Is your argument just that the tire industry is dominated by big old companies, and therefore they must do a terrible job? That doesn't make any sense.
 
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You keep saying existing tires are 'Bad'. Yet you have no basis for calling them bad. Just because they are the limiting factor does not mean they are a bad design or that significant improvements are even possible....
What I mean by "bad" is that the tires are the weakest link, bad relative to the rest of the car. I could call them good, but the rest of the car excellent -- it makes no difference. My feeling, supported by nothing but Tesla's history, is that they are likely trying to improve the parts of the car that are weakest. Most of the attention up to now has been on improving the battery and range (which involved the tires a bit). Some has gone to improving quickness (which has also involved tires). But I think at this point that the way that the vehicle interacts with the driving surface is the greatest opportunity for improvement of the vehicle, so my guess is that Tesla is trying hard to do something about it, most likely something amazing that existing tire manufacturers would never do.

My guess is that it will involve active reconfiguration of the tire structure at some level, perhaps piezoelectric bands to dynamically change the tread. Also possibly new materials -- various composites and carbon fiber seem to me to be likely candidates, but I really know nothing about that sort of thing. However I do know that Tesla likes to think big, and it doesn't count on others to solve its core problems.
 
Tesla has specially designed tires for their cars. Hankook produces 92 million tires a year so they must be doing something right. "Tesla has selected Hankook Tire as the main supplier of tires for the Model 3. Tesla finalized its deal with Hankook Tire after the electric car maker compared various samples submitted by competing tire manufacturers from around the world. The report also indicates that Hankook will be developing a special tire designed specifically to maximize range presumably as a result of reduced rolling resistance under normal load....
(Tesla) has even gone as far as designing a noise reducing tire technology with Continental Tire for the the Model S through the use of foam injection.... Hankook Tire produces over 92 million tires per year and is the supplier of original equipment tires to some of the world’s leading automakers, including Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, BMW, and soon Tesla" Tesla selects Hankook Tire as main supplier for Model 3 tires

Here is another vote for Hankook tires ... excellent performance and value :cool:
 
What I mean by "bad" is that the tires are the weakest link, bad relative to the rest of the car.
This doesn't make any sense. You seem to have this fuzzy feeling that the tires are bad, and the car is good without any way of quantifying it. I could just as easily say the tires are awesome, and the car is bad. Heck I even have data to support that, since my tires have perfect reliability and my car has had all sorts of issues.

Also possibly new materials -- various composites and carbon fiber.
Sure, when in doubt throw carbon fiber at it. Tires are already a composite of rubber and steel. Goodyear already tried replacing the steel with carbon fiber, and it didn't make much difference.
 
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What I mean by "bad" is that the tires are the weakest link, bad relative to the rest of the car. I could call them good, but the rest of the car excellent -- it makes no difference. My feeling, supported by nothing but Tesla's history, is that they are likely trying to improve the parts of the car that are weakest. Most of the attention up to now has been on improving the battery and range (which involved the tires a bit). Some has gone to improving quickness (which has also involved tires). But I think at this point that the way that the vehicle interacts with the driving surface is the greatest opportunity for improvement of the vehicle, so my guess is that Tesla is trying hard to do something about it, most likely something amazing that existing tire manufacturers would never do.

My guess is that it will involve active reconfiguration of the tire structure at some level, perhaps piezoelectric bands to dynamically change the tread. Also possibly new materials -- various composites and carbon fiber seem to me to be likely candidates, but I really know nothing about that sort of thing. However I do know that Tesla likes to think big, and it doesn't count on others to solve its core problems.

Tesla and SpaceX only gets involved in making their own when there is some sort of tech that Elon has determined is physically possible, but nobody is doing it, or they can't find a supplier to make what they want. Most of the automotive business is very complacent and slow to change, but that's not the case with tires. There is a lot of ongoing research by most tire makers to find the best tire formula.

About 15 years ago someone wrote a book about why Europe emerged as the dominant culture on the planet and why it wasn't someone else. He concluded that Europe had just enough competition between neighboring kingdoms to spur technological development without too much competition so there was not enough stability.

He used the example of China as a kingdom that could have dominated the world, but failed. Before the Europeans began exploring aggressively, the Chinese became the world's dominant naval power. They explored the coast of East Africa and there is some evidence a few ships made it all the way across the Pacific (stone anchors found off California).

The Rim of Fire didn't end up populated by the children of Chinese sailors because they crewed their ships with eunuchs. And just as their explorers were about the round Cape Horn and make their way towards Europe, a new emperor came into power who hated ships and scrapped the whole program, having everyone involved put to death.

When an empire is large, one idiot can kill a potentially great technology on a whim.

On the other side was India which had lots of small competing states. The borders of these states were so fluid nobody knew from year to year which monarch they were going to be beholden to next. That instability didn't allow new tech and innovation to develop.

In Europe, there was constant conflict between neighbors and the borders of Eastern European countries changed quite frequently. However, the balance between stability and competition was just right for new tech to flourish and not be lost. If an idiot monarch decided he didn't like some new tech, losing the next war would convince him of his folly.

The car business is not competitive enough. In the case of cars, there is a lot of brand loyalty and they pretty much offer the same tech on most cars. A Toyota Corolla is going to have pretty much the same feature set as other cars by other makers in the same price and size range. One may have more cup holders, but overall there isn't much difference from brand to brand.

Because of this stability and reluctance of customers to move, the pace of innovation is relatively slow and things are pretty stable. On the other hand, tires are the one area of the car business where there is a lot of competition. There are many players but a large enough market that each can make a good income selling tires to new car makers as well as replacement tires to consumers.

Tires are also one thing that can have noticeable variation and every car owner needs to buy them. Other aftermarket car items either make little difference like the brand of motor oil (again there is a lot of brand loyalty here, but there is little difference between one brand and another, looking at the same type of oil, synthetic vs natural is a different thing) or they are optional like seat covers. Tires are something everyone needs and they can vary a fair bit.

So tire makers aren't complacent. They spend a fair bit on R&D working on better tire tech. Whoever comes up with superior tech has an advantage in the marketplace for a few years until everyone else catches up.

If Tesla came up with a new idea for tires that was a tech advancement, they would find an interested and willing audience in almost any tire maker they approached. They don't want to be like the European king who passes on a new technology only to find out their neighbor has it the next time they fight one another.

As a result if Tesla has any new ideas about tires, they don't need to expend the effort to learn how to make tires, they just need to partner with a tire maker to make what they want to make.

Here is another vote for Hankook tires ... excellent performance and value :cool:

My SO's ex-husband (who is still a friend) put Hankooks on both his cars. They were the cheapest and he didn't have a lot of money, but he was very impressed with the performance. He's a bit of a motorhead (built custom motorcycles, had a classic Mercedes for a while, etc.) so if he's impressed they are definitely worth a second look.
 
Tesla and SpaceX only gets involved in making their own when there is some sort of tech that Elon has determined is physically possible, but nobody is doing it, or they can't find a supplier to make what they want. Most of the automotive business is very complacent and slow to change, but that's not the case with tires. There is a lot of ongoing research by most tire makers to find the best tire formula.

And yet somehow tires are still significantly the weakest part of my P85. And they don't seem to be getting better much, do they? Despite all the "never gonna happen" responses I've generated here, I still think Elon won't sit still for this. I'm expecting to see something seriously innovative in the next couple of years. We shall see. Or not.
 
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Sometimes technologies can't be improved dramatically. Tires may be the worst part of your car, but that doesn't mean there is some magic technology waiting in the wings nobody is willing to implement.

Cars also don't quantum leap through hyperspace. Wishing they would doesn't mean somebody can make it happen with existing known science.
 
Sometimes technologies can't be improved dramatically. Tires may be the worst part of your car, but that doesn't mean there is some magic technology waiting in the wings nobody is willing to implement.
Imagining that tires can't be radically improved is about the same as imagining that ICE vehicles can't be radically improved. It just means a lack of vision. Since Elon Musk has vision, I'm guessing he'll figure it out. After all, he has an amphibious vehicle to build and tires as we know them will, I think, be rather inconvenient.

Since most of the recent attempts to build robots have them walking over rough terrain, perhaps tomorrow's cars will walk too. Getting rid of the need for roads would be a big win. And they'd use the best kind of tires -- none at all. Here, scale this up 10x and call it a personal car. It seems to already be electric: here it says that "It makes use of a new high-voltage liquid-cooled motor technology that uses a capacitor, rather a battery, for power."
 
Imagining that tires can't be radically improved is about the same as imagining that ICE vehicles can't be radically improved. It just means a lack of vision. Since Elon Musk has vision, I'm guessing he'll figure it out. After all, he has an amphibious vehicle to build and tires as we know them will, I think, be rather inconvenient.

Since most of the recent attempts to build robots have them walking over rough terrain, perhaps tomorrow's cars will walk too. Getting rid of the need for roads would be a big win. And they'd use the best kind of tires -- none at all. Here, scale this up 10x and call it a personal car. It seems to already be electric: here it says that "It makes use of a new high-voltage liquid-cooled motor technology that uses a capacitor, rather a battery, for power."

Elon Musk has done a lot of big things because he looked at the way things were being done, went down to basic Physics in his analysis and concluded there was a better way of doing things than the way they were currently being done. That's at the core of what both SpaceX and Tesla do.

However I have never heard Elon make the slightest mention that there is any way to radically improve tires over the current technology. The way he looks at things, he's probably done the analysis and figured out that modern tire technology is optimized for all the rules of Physics and there is no real room for improvement.

And making cars that walk have a lot of drawbacks. For one thing you need a lot more moving parts and with every moving part you have a potential failure point and a future wear point. Additionally it takes a fair bit of effort to stabilize the passenger cabin in a walking car and will require some pretty bulky equipment to smooth the ride. And finally, to move at highway speeds the car will have to run, which will put incredible strain on roads and bridges.

For rough terrain, special purpose vehicles, some kind of walking robot has potential uses, but for use on paved roads, wheeled vehicles are the only tech for the now. We may have flying cars someday, but making a vehicle fly takes a lot more energy than restricting it to the ground and batteries are not up to that now and probably won't be for a few decades.

Super capacitors will probably replace batteries for cars someday, but it will be at least a decade. Right now the best available super capacitors have about 1/10 the energy density of an average Li-ion battery. Though they charge much faster than batteries and can discharge faster. The potential for great things is there once they get the energy density up. There have been stories lately that the material used for contact lenses is showing promise as an electrolyte, but that tech is still in early testing in the lab.

I strongly suspect that Elon has looked at all the possible ways a car can meet the ground from basic principles on up and he's concluded that today the best tech we have is rubber tires and there is no huge improvement everybody is missing. He's that sort of person, he probably worked it out on one of his trips back and forth between LA and the Bay Area.

The fact he has never said anything about tire tech tells me he probably sees no serious gain in getting into the technology.

Just because Elon has had brilliant insights into how to do things better in a few areas doesn't mean he can improve everything. There are some things that just can't be radically improved with what we currently know. It's going to take a scientific breakthrough before the tech can be improved.
 
Every few years the "tweel" concept pops up again, a non-pneumatic tire/wheel combo which is easy to re-tread. Advantages: Can't go flat, great lateral stability ("steering feel").

Nobody is rushing them into production, however. There's likely several reasons, including that they're ugly as all get-out.

It's interesting that tires are such a competitive business, but that consumer information about the products is so bad. Trying to get information on the differences between two tires is horrible, despite having standardized ratings for dry/wet traction, treadwear, etc.
 
Every few years the "tweel" concept pops up again, a non-pneumatic tire/wheel combo which is easy to re-tread. Advantages: Can't go flat, great lateral stability ("steering feel").

Nobody is rushing them into production, however. There's likely several reasons, including that they're ugly as all get-out.

It's interesting that tires are such a competitive business, but that consumer information about the products is so bad. Trying to get information on the differences between two tires is horrible, despite having standardized ratings for dry/wet traction, treadwear, etc.
Ugly isnt the main reason. They don't work well for moderate high speed because well a cushion of air is softer and the tweels tend to get stuff stuck in them (mud, gravel, birds, etc) which really throws them off balance.

Tesla should focus on tires only when they are really bored. Also, separate tires are one more extra layer of defense in liability suits.
 
My guess is that it will involve active reconfiguration of the tire structure at some level, perhaps piezoelectric bands to dynamically change the tread. Also possibly new materials -- various composites and carbon fiber seem to me to be likely candidates, but I really know nothing about that sort of thing.
Without knowing anything about the topic, it seems hard to be sure there is an advantage actually feasible. You could also propose they build the Model Y out of unobtanium and vibranium. Would probably do amazing things for weight and NVH dampening.
 
Without knowing anything about the topic, it seems hard to be sure there is an advantage actually feasible. You could also propose they build the Model Y out of unobtanium and vibranium. Would probably do amazing things for weight and NVH dampening.
Yup. Ain't ignorance an awful thing? I was hoping to get some informed discussion going about what might actually be possible. Instead, mostly it sounds like "Don't question the wisdom of the current manufacturers. They're doing all they can." Given Tesla's response to that argument with regards to battery technology, I don't see that it carries much weight.

But yes, I don't have an informed opinion on how Tesla might improve tires radically.
 
Tesla's invention wasn't to invent a new form of battery technology, it was to see that the existing manufacturing of the 18650 cell presented an opportunity to repurpose the existing battery in a novel use that was economically feasible for them when it hadn't been before and wasn't interesting to potential competitors. Tesla didn't invent the 18650 cell, it used them in a novel application because they had become cheap enough to be possible.

If there's a material that would do the job of the tire better that hasn't been used before for some other reason, that would be a potential improvement in tires worth adopting. But there's nothing particular I'm aware of about EVs that make their tire requirements different from other vehicles, so there's plenty of incentive in the existing markets to make every possible improvement.

I am reminded of a story a friend of mine who retired from Exxon told. Apparently back when the first engines of a new design came out, it turned out that they clogged very quickly with the fuel available. So Cadillac is yelling at his bosses to change things so this design will work.
It turns out they ended up going to a different blend they had rejected a few years ago because it was less efficient in existing engines, but worked better with the new design. (He told this story because of a funny incident with the redneck test drivers at a San Antonio racetrack they were using for testing.)

The point of the story is there may be an existing compound or design that turns out to work better with Tesla's particular usage profile than other vehicles, such as using the onboard computers for optimizing traction or braking or suspension that allows softer or harder or something different. But that change can be made using outsourced tire suppliers just as easily as in house, while retaining all of the massive institutional knowledge the existing companies have about how to make and design tires that Tesla doesn't have in house. Tesla just needs to identify what those features are and request them from Hankook, Continental, Pirelli etc.