When will we know the specs for the P-AWD Model 3?

[Candleflame]

no, the difference in accelerating from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds vs 5 seconds is just bragging rights and epenis. nothing more.

QUOTE="daniel, post: 2145547, member: 1500"]Thanks for all the thoughts.



I disagree. At least for me. It's about the thrill of acceleration, and it's about merging and passing. If it was important for me to have a car I could brag about I'd never have driven a Zap Xebra as my daily driver for four years. I'd probably still be driving it today but it was so underpowered that it almost could not make it up the hills downtown. And it remained my daily driver until I could get a "proper" EV, which was the Roadster only because that was the first "proper" EV I could get my hands on after waiting six months beyond the promised delivery date for a Nissan Leaf, and still no Leaf in sight.

In the end I was very happy it turned out this way because I love the Roadster. But it's not about bragging rights at all. It's about performance. And knowing the performance figures for the Model 3 will help me decide if it's worth it to me to give up the amazing styling and fun factor of the Roadster for a safer car. Better than 4 seconds zero to sixty in the car's normal mode (i.e. without special preparation) would make that decision easy.



Exactly! People need information to make an informed decision. It would be a cruel joke to have enticed people to wait in long lines (some over night?) to get in an early reservation, only to find they needed to effectively give up their place in the ordering queue if they want actual specs before choosing which version to order.

Yes, people who want the AWD or P-AWD version will have to wait for it. But having to wait just to get the specs would be hard indeed.

I really want the AP features. But I also want the performance. I could buy what's available and then sell it and trade up when the P-AWD comes out. Or I could just wait for the P-AWD. Or I could decide just to stick with my Roadster until there are superchargers on my routes up to Canada so that I could dump the stinker and go all-electric. To make these decisions I need a test drive (to see if the car feels too big) and I need specs. And the sooner the better, for both.[/QUOTE]

 

[Alketi]

0-60: 3.5s (+/- 0.5s)

Price for P75D-L: $75K (more if mandatory options are bundled)

Availability: April 2018 (if Tesla hits their milestones, otherwise later)

Their benchmark, IMO, is the BMW M3, which, depending on whose 0-60 time you believe, runs roughly 3.7s.

 

[daniel]

You know Daniel, I've come to realize that my posts are superfluous so long as you post.
I'll just kick back and up-vote you posts. They are better written than mine and mirror my opinions so well.

Cheers

Thank you for the very kind words. But there are clearly people on here who disagree with us, and a post with your thoughts has more impact than an up-vote (though I appreciate that also).

So do keep posting.

no, the difference in accelerating from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds vs 5 seconds is just bragging rights and epenis. nothing more.

So you deny that fun plays a role in it at all? From one point of view, a car that does zero to 35 mph in 30 seconds is perfectly serviceable for in-town driving (that's what I drove for 4 years and I loved it) and a car that does zero to 60 in 20 seconds is probably all anyone really needs for longer trips. One could argue that even just a Honda Civic is e-penis because some folks make do with a bicycle.

I bought my Roadster because I could not get a Nissan Leaf. It had nothing to do with bragging rights and everything to do with the fact that I hate gasoline. And the Zap Xebra, which was my daily driver for four years, and which I loved driving, was just too underpowered. Then I fell in love with the fun and the utility of the torque. It's fun to feel the acceleration, and it's useful for merging and passing.

The fact is that everybody has their own reasons for their buying choices (cars and anything else) and the assertion that it's nothing more than bragging rights and penises is just plain nonsense. (And for all the talk about cars as chick magnets, I think that in 6 years of driving the Roadster, I've had two women comment on it. The people who approach me to complement my car are almost exclusively guys. If I was gay, this car might get me dates. As it is, zip.)

So, no, you're just wrong when you say that 0 to 100 kph in 3 seconds is just bragging and penis. (Though I don't ever expect to have that much acceleration.)

 

[juanmedina]

0-60: 3.5s (+/- 0.5s)

Price for P75D-L: $75K (more if mandatory options are bundled)

Availability: April 2018 (if Tesla hits their milestones, otherwise later)

Their benchmark, IMO, is the BMW M3, which, depending on whose 0-60 time you believe, runs roughly 3.7s.

I hope the 0-60 is better than that because you can get a corvette gransport for 65k with at 0-60mph of 3.6 sec.

The Model S and X are faster than supercars and hypercars that are obviously not in their car segment. I hope Tesla takes the same approach with the P75DL.

 

[zenmaster]

What's the premium for P over AWD? Some people are saying $10K, some people are saying $20K. Why not be helpful and include reasoning behind your guesses?

 

[Alketi]

I hope the 0-60 is better than that because you can get a corvette gransport for 65k with at 0-60mph of 3.6 sec.

The Model S and X are faster than supercars and hypercars that are obviously not in their car segment. I hope Tesla takes the same approach with the P75DL.

But does the Corvette get 100MPG?

EV acceleration is a function of many things including battery size, discharge rate, motor output, and vehicle weight, to name a few. If the P85DL was pushed to the wall at 2.8s, it's highly unlikely (IMO) that a cheaper 75DL (with a smaller battery) will break 3s. Battery capacity/discharge and motor output are the dominating factors in the equation.

 

[favo]

Does anyone think there will be a P without Ludicrous? I don't, given that they no longer have that configuration on Model S. Thoughts?

 

[juanmedina]

But does the Corvette get 100MPG?

EV acceleration is a function of many things including battery size, discharge rate, motor output, and vehicle weight, to name a few. If the P85DL was pushed to the wall at 2.8s, it's highly unlikely (IMO) that a cheaper 75DL (with a smaller battery) will break 3s. Battery capacity/discharge and motor output are the dominating factors in the equation.

Is all about power to weight ratio....

 

[zenmaster]

But does the Corvette get 100MPG?

EV acceleration is a function of many things including battery size, discharge rate, motor output, and vehicle weight, to name a few. If the P85DL was pushed to the wall at 2.8s, it's highly unlikely (IMO) that a cheaper 75DL (with a smaller battery) will break 3s. Battery capacity/discharge and motor output are the dominating factors in the equation.

Ain't gonna get anything near 2.8s with Hankook tires.

 

[daniel]

Does anyone think there will be a P without Ludicrous? I don't, given that they no longer have that configuration on Model S. Thoughts?

Wild guess based on pretty much nothing: Ludicrous will be saved for the Model S and X (does the X even have it? I don't know.) The Model 3, being the downscale sedan, will have Performance, but not Ludicrous. We won't see Ludicrous on another model until the Roadster Mk II comes out with Maximum Plaid.

Since Ludicrous is a step up from Performance, it's redundant to use both terms together.

 

[DarthPierce]

Elon confirmed Ludicrous in M3 last year.

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[JeffK]

Elon confirmed Ludicrous in M3 last year.

Elon Musk on Twitter

Yup, and let's all keep in mind the first Ludicrous vehicle was the P85 0 - 60 mph in 2.8 seconds this was down from the Insane mode at 3.2 seconds.

For me personally, if you're going to call it "ludicrous", then it's got to be under 3 seconds 0 - 60 mph and Elon did confirm ludicrous.

Also here are some other data points... Elon mentioned that the dual motor version would be "much faster" than what they showed at launch. There was a rumor before launch of the Model 3 having nearly 300 mile range and a 0-60 in under 4 seconds.

Now, this could be just my own wishful thinking... but if they announced that the Model 3 75D is 0-60 in under 4 seconds and the Model 3 P75D ludicrous is under 3 seconds, it would be the greatest day on Earth.

 

[smac]

@daniel I understand where you are coming from, but if Tesla were not so motivated about 0-60 times, why make the X so fast if it was all about the S P100D?

Being honest about it, the 75D in any variant is fast enough for 99% of the buyers. and the power delivery is 1,000,000 times better than any ICE. Explaining this fact in a strapline is almost impossible (something us EV converts know too well)., so Tesla needed an anchor and 0-60 was perfect.

Where I think they will struggle is when other premium EV's start coming on stream that can also tap into the metric which the electric drive train naturally excels.

Do I think the 3 and the Jag are in the same segment. Nope. The Jag is between the 3 and the S. Think Model S 75D money, but for a top spec yet smaller car. I think it's fair to say people looking at the 3, and hoping for a PD variant are expecting this sort of pricing too, i.e just crossing into entry level Model S money. So at the same money, a luxury BEV, that is top of the line within its model line up, I do think there will be some serious cross shopping consideration. However I also think Tesla will sell many more P375D's than Jaguar does I-Paces. (Combination of brand and SpC network).

However I don't think Tesla have it in their DNA to just take the sales win, they will want to have headline 0-60, range and charge rate numbers wins too.

As for Jaguar reliability, I've had a couple of modern ones on fleet (for employee's company cars) and they've been fine. The most troublesome car ever on our fleet (out of 100's) was without a shadow of a doubt made in Fremont.

 

[zenmaster]

0-60: 3.5s (+/- 0.5s)

Price for P75D-L: $75K (more if mandatory options are bundled)

Availability: April 2018 (if Tesla hits their milestones, otherwise later)

Their benchmark, IMO, is the BMW M3, which, depending on whose 0-60 time you believe, runs roughly 3.7s.

It makes little sense to use the BMW M3 as a benchmark because the BMW M3 is built for a performance car market. The BMW platform has many other bits added for suspension, braking, etc that you wouldn't get in a non-performance oriented car such as the Model 3. The bulk of BMW M3 buyers would NOT be cross shopping due to drag racing bragging rights!

 

[Troy]

The M3 is the performance version of the BMW 3 series and the Model 3 P75D is the performance version of Model 3. Therefore the comparison seems fair especially considering that Elon himself mentioned the 3 series.

Source: Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[zenmaster]

If Model 3 75D is comparable to BMW 3 series, it seems fair that Model 3 P75D would be compared to BMW M3.

That would only seem to make sense if the performance oriented changes that Tesla makes to their Model 3 to make it a "P" would be comparable to the equivalent changes made to the 3-series platform to produce the BMW M3. Better cooling for harder driving, carbon fiber components including lighter weight hood, roof, drivetrain, panels, suspension, better brakes, wheels, etc.

 

[JeffK]

That would only seem to make sense if the performance oriented changes that Tesla makes to their Model 3 to make it a "P" would be comparable to the equivalent changes made to the 3-series platform to produce the BMW M3. Better cooling for harder driving, carbon fiber components including lighter weight hood, roof, drivetrain, panels, suspension, better brakes, wheels, etc.

• The BMW M3 is still 3500+ lbs
• The drivetrain of the Tesla (minus the battery) is much lighter than that of the BMW.
• Tesla uses Brembo brakes... they are on many cars such as from Porsche and Ferrari (perhaps you don't think those are as sporty as BMW )
• The standard BMW M3 hood is aluminum, likely the Tesla Model 3 hood will also be aluminum.
• We have no idea what the Model 3 cooling will be like, so we can't comment on that.

There are still a great number of people who buy BMWs for bragging rights and out of those, many choose the M3 for the acceleration. I'm positive many of this crowd would still rather have a lower cost, quicker, quieter, vehicle.
In my opinion, as far as bragging rights go, Tesla is the new BMW. It seems like every other person in my neighborhood has a BMW there's nothing special, however if you own a Tesla then you're part of an exclusive club.

If BMW comes out with an all electric M3 then all bets are off...

 

[daniel]

Wild guess based on pretty much nothing: Ludicrous will be saved for the Model S and X (does the X even have it? I don't know.) The Model 3, being the downscale sedan, will have Performance, but not Ludicrous. We won't see Ludicrous on another model until the Roadster Mk II comes out with Maximum Plaid.

Since Ludicrous is a step up from Performance, it's redundant to use both terms together.

Elon confirmed Ludicrous in M3 last year.

Elon Musk on Twitter

I am very happy to be corrected on this. Thank you, DarthPierce, and everyone else who chimed in!

I am not a car person. I want a car for transportation, and I hate gasoline. I only know the cars I've owned, so all the comparisons to BMW and Porsche and Audi and all the rest of them, go right over my head.

@daniel ... Where I think they will struggle is when other premium EV's start coming on stream that can also tap into the metric which the electric drive train naturally excels.
...

Elon wants transportation to go electric. He knows Tesla cannot do that alone. So I think he will welcome all other entrants into the EV market, and I think he knows that at some point in the future Tesla will be one company among many in this market. I welcome the day when several other companies are making EVs so good that we really have to shop around before buying, rather than just assuming (as I do now) that a Tesla is my obvious choice.

 

[smac]

I agree with @zennmaster re the 3 series to M3 changes. The cars are so different BMW lists them as different models. Even the body work is different, let alone all the mechanical stuff.

The P100D and the S60 are visually identical bar the badges and some red paint on the calipers. Suspension same, brakes same, interior same, features same, available options the same... Tesla really have done very well in this regard getting people to pay double the base price for a fully loaded car. No doubt this is a huge win for gross margins.

Will they be able to pull the same off for the Model 3... I think so. Therefore my educated guess of a loaded P+AWD Model 3 is roughly double base price, putting it in the $70k region.

 

[zenmaster]

I agree with @zennmaster re the 3 series to M3 changes. The cars are so different BMW lists them as different models. Even the body work is different, let alone all the mechanical stuff.

I'm surprised by the superficial and frankly ignorant thought process of merely adding Tesla's P features the Model 3 makes it comparable to a BMW M3. It simply doesn't work that way in the non fan boy world folks. An M car is objectively in another category of overall performance. It is a purpose built machine.

Tesla doesn't want to compete there yet, but they might have something with the new roadster if they can solve the thermal management problem.