When will we know the specs for the P-AWD Model 3?

[Alketi]

I'm surprised by the superficial and frankly ignorant thought process of merely adding Tesla's P features the Model 3 makes it comparable to a BMW M3. It simply doesn't work that way in the non fan boy world folks. An M car is objectively in another category of overall performance. It is a purpose built machine.

Tesla doesn't want to compete there yet, but they might have something with the new roadster if they can solve the thermal management problem.

Tesla's not trying to win over the BMW fanboys and forum regulars who quote skid pad numbers in their sleep. The BMW M3 price and acceleration figures are just marketing points to beat. It doesn't matter if its meaningless. It's just a target.

 

[daniel]

I agree with @zennmaster re the 3 series to M3 changes. The cars are so different BMW lists them as different models. Even the body work is different, let alone all the mechanical stuff.

The P100D and the S60 are visually identical bar the badges and some red paint on the calipers. Suspension same, brakes same, interior same, features same, available options the same... Tesla really have done very well in this regard getting people to pay double the base price for a fully loaded car. No doubt this is a huge win for gross margins.

Will they be able to pull the same off for the Model 3... I think so. Therefore my educated guess of a loaded P+AWD Model 3 is roughly double base price, putting it in the $70k region.

And I'll pay that if it handles like the P85D Model S I test drove a couple of years ago and accelerates noticeably quicker than my Roadster, providing that it doesn't just feel too big for me. By the time the P-AWD model is available, any early production bugs should be worked out, and with a second-day reservation (IIRC) I won't be getting one of the very first.

 

[zenmaster]

Tesla's not trying to win over the BMW fanboys and forum regulars who quote skid pad numbers in their sleep. The BMW M3 price and acceleration figures are just marketing points to beat. It doesn't matter if its meaningless. It's just a target.

It is as a "benchmark". It begs the question of "whose target?" and of course why?

 

[Uncle Paul]

M3 is more of a boy racer. Stock it is not track capable, but with modifications it can endure racing speeds and give great feedback and enjoyment to the racer.

The performance Teslas are even less race track capable, but far better for enthusiastic road driving. They do not make so much noise that it attracts the Police and irritates bystanders.

Two different vehicles. The electric/no exhaust pollution drive give it a feeling that M3 cannot match.

For most drivers, it is the driving experience that matters much more that the statistics.

Both the M3 and high performance Tesla's give this in spades.

 

[smac]

And I'll pay that if it handles like the P85D Model S I test drove a couple of years ago and accelerates noticeably quicker than my Roadster, providing that it doesn't just feel too big for me. By the time the P-AWD model is available, any early production bugs should be worked out, and with a second-day reservation (IIRC) I won't be getting one of the very first.

@daniel I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd be tempted too if the price isn't silly and the timescales for a UK version were closer / clearer. (I have to say lack of hatchback is a real downer for me, so I'd have to test one first and fall in love with it to push me over that hump).

If anything it's a huge compliment to Tesla's business model that they have such strong demand for their P variant, where the likes of BMW / Audi / Mercedes really have to add some expensive trinkets to their performance variants in order to justify their price difference from the cars on which they are based.

 

[daniel]

...
For most drivers, it is the driving experience that matters much more that the statistics.

Agreed! My Zap Xebra was a P.o.S. by any measure of statistics/numbers. No power, zero to 35 mph in about a half a minute on level ground. It was a rattletrap and a death trap ("safest motorcycle you can buy" as I used to say). It was badly designed and poorly constructed. Stock range was 20 miles to empty, though with an aftermarket battery pack it got 40 miles. I bought mine with the 40-mile pack.

But it was so much fun to drive that every time I got in it, it put a great big smile on my face! I totally loved it, and if it hadn't been quite so underpowered I'd probably still be driving it today.

@daniel I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd be tempted too if the price isn't silly and the timescales for a UK version were closer / clearer. (I have to say lack of hatchback is a real downer for me, so I'd have to test one first and fall in love with it to push me over that hump).

I guess the Model 3 won't be sold in the UK until some time after it launches in the U.S. That means you'll likely have a shorter wait between first availability, and availability of the AWD and P versions. Unless they follow the same patters of gradual geographical expansion for those trim lines as for the first launch of the base car.

I agree that a hatchback is much more useful. The sedan body style is just plain stupid.

 

[zenmaster]

For most drivers, it is the driving experience that matters much more that the statistics.

This is what you'd expect, and what people tend to pay extra for when shopping for a performance car. The Tesla's are just not quite competitive yet for when overall performance capability is the consideration. What you do get these days with a Tesla is a fast drag racer but a very slow track car (even a 328i could beat it).

For overall performance and driving fun, I'd rather spend money on the better track car, which requires performance oriented attributes such as braking and turn handling. As a bonus, you get better road feedback which inspires confidence at speed.

 

[smac]

@zenmaster. It's a case of horse for courses.

Personally I didn't buy a P car last time round because the savings made buying the 60 went a long way toward my track car which is even more suited to that environment than an M3.

For road use, all the Tesla's are fantastically good cars. I don't think any one here would argue they are the best choice for racing circuits though.

Some people will think like me and get the sensible road variants, others are free to go and buy the ludicrous mode versions. We all must make our own judgement calls on what is important to us.

 

[zenmaster]

@zenmaster. It's a case of horse for courses.

Personally I didn't buy a P car last time round because the savings made buying the 60 went a long way toward my track car which is even more suited to that environment than an M3.

For road use, all the Tesla's are fantastically good cars. I don't think any one here would argue they are the best choice for racing circuits though.

Some people will think like me and get the sensible road variants, others are free to go and buy the ludicrous mode versions. We all must make our own judgement calls on what is important to us.

The point really is that Tesla is not attracting the performance car buyer due to lack of capability of its platform. And comparing a Tesla to a P car doesn't make sense due to the different capabilities and buying decisions involved. The fact that they are both "great cars" is really beside the point. The thing is there is a significant additional cost that buyers in the performance market are willing to pay largely due to the performance you get for that money (hint: not 0-60 times). Tesla is not in that performance car market, so what is the reason for comparison? There can only be one if you totally ignore just those performance attributes that people find valuable in that (different) market.

If Tesla wanted to enter that market (be competitive), it would have to reduce weight, offer better brakes, better handling, and improve acceleration endurance.

 

[JeffK]

The point really is that Tesla is not attracting the performance car buyer due to lack of capability of its platform. And comparing a Tesla to a P car doesn't make sense due to the different capabilities and buying decisions involved. The fact that they are both "great cars" is really beside the point. The thing is there is a significant additional cost that buyers in the performance market are willing to pay largely due to the performance you get for that money (hint: not 0-60 times). Tesla is not in that performance car market, so what is the reason for comparison? There can only be one if you totally ignore just those performance attributes that people find valuable in that (different) market.

If Tesla wanted to enter that market (be competitive), it would have to reduce weight, offer better brakes, better handling, and improve acceleration endurance.

I would venture a guess that the majority of people in the market for a performance car don't buy it for track use. So the point is moot.

If the Model 3 Performance version comes in cheaper than the BMW M3, then it will, without a doubt, eat into M3 sales.

 

[EinSV]

I would venture a guess that the majority of people in the market for a performance car don't buy it for track use. So the point is moot.

If the Model 3 Performance version comes in cheaper than the BMW M3, then it will, without a doubt, eat into M3 sales.

I think the Model 3 P's acceleration will eat the M3 (and all other ICE competitors) for lunch.

It will also likely handle at least as well.

The comparisons in this thread of handling between the very large Model S and much smaller ICE vehicles like the BMW M3 is apples v. oranges. A closer (but still not perfect) comparison is between the Model S and the M5 and M6.

Even though the Model S is significantly larger than the BMW M5 and M6,, the P100D stacks up quite well against these vehicles in Motor Trend's figure 8 test. -- 24.6 secs for P100D v. an identical 24.6 secs for M5 E10, and slightly better 24.3 secs for M5 E10 Competition, 24.5 secs for Alpina B6 and 24.3 for M6. 2017 Tesla Model S P100D First Test: A New Record - 0-60 MPH in 2.28 Seconds! - Motor Trend 2017 BMW M6 Gran Coupe vs. 2016 BMW Alpina B6 xDrive Gran Coupe 2013 BMW M5 First Test - Motor Trend This is a reasonably good test of handling ability, and the Model S's performance was similar to BMW's best larger performance sedans.

And there is no comparison on acceleration -- the BMWs are just not in the same league.

Because of their low CG, balanced weight distribution and superior acceleration, EVs have inherent performance advantages over ICE vehicles. These are still very early days for performance Teslas. The P100D's acceleration already blows away ICE vehicles at street legal speeds, and its handling is already approaching that of the very best comparable ICE vehicles, and improving quickly.

I am looking forward to seeing what Tesla is able to pull off with the Model 3 P75D next year.

 

[daniel]

This is what you'd expect, and what people tend to pay extra for when shopping for a performance car. The Tesla's are just not quite competitive yet for when overall performance capability is the consideration. What you do get these days with a Tesla is a fast drag racer but a very slow track car (even a 328i could beat it).

For overall performance and driving fun, I'd rather spend money on the better track car, which requires performance oriented attributes such as braking and turn handling. As a bonus, you get better road feedback which inspires confidence at speed.

The Teslas are not race cars. They are road cars. Unless you live in Germany and drive on the Autobahn, Tesla cars go faster than a sane person will drive on public roads. And their acceleration up to the fastest anyone would, or should, want to drive on public roads ranges from very good to mind-boggling. I have no idea if Tesla will some day enter the race-car market, but they have not done so yet. Tesla just is not going for the people who want a car they can race. When Tesla began, the general perception of electric cars was golf carts. Tesla had to overcome that perception in order for EVs to be accepted by the general public. And they have done so in spades. Pretty much everyone now knows that an EV will out-accelerate any other road-legal car, and will go far enough on a charge for all but the most insane commuters. Long-distance road trips are still an issue, which Tesla is addressing with its network of superchargers, not yet complete, and not yet integrated into the general public awareness.

Speaking for myself, I've never driven on a race track and I have no intention of ever doing so. But it is fun to floor the pedal from a stop to the 35-mph limit here in town, and it's really nice to have the acceleration for merging and passing on the freeway. These are where electric cars excel. And this is why some folks buy the performance versions of Tesla cars. And again speaking for myself, I love the fact that this extreme acceleration is whisper-quiet.

So if what you want is a full-on race car, Tesla doesn't have anything for you. But if you're looking for a road car, Tesla has, by some measures, the best you can buy. They have not yet matched the pure hedonistic comfort of the most expensive ICE cars, but they're still young.

 

[zenmaster]

So if what you want is a full-on race car, Tesla doesn't have anything for you. But if you're looking for a road car, Tesla has, by some measures, the best you can buy. They have not yet matched the pure hedonistic comfort of the most expensive ICE cars, but they're still young.

The question is how is the Tesla Model 3P comparable in overall performance to the BMW M3. Since people buy the BMW M3 specifically for the performance features, how can the Tesla Model 3 P be benchmarked against the BMW M3 if it doesn't perform as well? Thought this was a simple question, but no one has bothered to address it.

 

[JeffK]

The question is how is the Tesla Model 3P comparable in overall performance to the BMW M3. Since people buy the BMW M3 specifically for the performance features, how can the Tesla Model 3 P be benchmarked against the BMW M3 if it doesn't perform as well? Thought this was a simple question, but no one has bothered to address it.

For many people, performance == acceleration and they ignore everything else... see muscle cars.

 

[daniel]

The question is how is the Tesla Model 3P comparable in overall performance to the BMW M3. Since people buy the BMW M3 specifically for the performance features, how can the Tesla Model 3 P be benchmarked against the BMW M3 if it doesn't perform as well? Thought this was a simple question, but no one has bothered to address it.

For many people, performance == acceleration and they ignore everything else... see muscle cars.

The main reason I want AWD is that after driving a P85D Model S, I'd say that the handling of an AWD Tesla is beyond amazing. Of course I want the best brakes I can get as well. I expect the Model 3 to excel.

 

[Swampgator]

My best uodated guess for all models 0-60

60 RWD 5.6 secs
75 RWD 5.2 secs
60D 4.6 secs
75D 4.2 secs
P75D 3.2 secs

 

[zenmaster]

I would venture a guess that the majority of people in the market for a performance car don't buy it for track use. So the point is moot.

If the Model 3 Performance version comes in cheaper than the BMW M3, then it will, without a doubt, eat into M3 sales.

Not quite. The majority of people in the market for the BMW M3 or AMG or RS are looking at different criteria than drag strip times. That market has a very poor overlap with the Tesla Model 3 P, primarily due to lack of similar performance capability and of course driving feel which is often more important. Other consideration are cost and styling.

 

[eladts]

Hi. It's in Tesla's best interest not to release the specs until they are ready to produce the Model 3 D and P versions because ideally, they want to continue selling as many Model S cars as possible until they start making the Model 3 variants with higher profit margins.

Here are my predictions:

Performance:

• The Model 3 75D will have a lower 0-60 mph time than the Model S 75D's 5.2s.
• The Model 3 P75D 0-60 time will be 3.5 seconds or less.

EPA rated range:

• Model 3 55: 218 mi (351 km) for the Model 3 55
• Model 3 55D: 227 mi (366 km) for the Model 3 55D
• Model 3 75: 284 mi (458 km) for the Model 3 75
• Model 3 75D: 297 mi (477 km) for the Model 3 75D
• Model 3 P75D: 281 mi (453 km) for the Model 3 P75D

Production start dates:

My 2017 Model 3 production estimate = 45,468 units.

Most of my predictions are research based. You can check out my prediction success rate here. The related discussion topic is here.

I'm not sure there is going to be single-motor Model 3 75. Such a configuration only existed on the Model S 85 because dual-motor was not developed yet.

 

[JeffK]

Not quite. The majority of people in the market for the BMW M3 or AMG or RS are looking at different criteria than drag strip times. That market has a very poor overlap with the Tesla Model 3 P, primarily due to lack of similar performance capability and of course driving feel which is often more important. Other consideration are cost and styling.

Let's clarify that not many people are in the market to begin with, BMWs global sales of M cars is very small relatively speaking. More people bought Porsches than BMW M cars (all M cars not just M3).
As far as cost and styling ... the BMW M3 will cost more and the interior is busy. So many buttons...

Even a minor overlap let's say 500 people in the US decided to go with a Tesla P Model 3 instead of a BMW M3 then you'd eat over 10% of the M3 US sales. The US accounts for 40% of the M series market.

 

[rxlawdude]

Let's clarify that not many people are in the market to begin with, BMWs global sales of M cars is very small relatively speaking. More people bought Porsches than BMW M cars (all M cars not just M3).
As far as cost and styling ... the BMW M3 will cost more and the interior is busy. So many buttons...

Even a minor overlap let's say 500 people in the US decided to go with a Tesla P Model 3 instead of a BMW M3 then you'd eat over 10% of the M3 US sales. The US accounts for 40% of the M series market.

EWWW! All those buttons!