When will we know the specs for the P-AWD Model 3?

[smac]

@zenmaster. OK so here is what my S60 -> P85 budget (using finest man maths) bought me.

Seen above on the Transfagarasan highway, 500+ miles away from the nearest Supercharger.



So forget the M3 (or Model 3 Performance with AWD), buy a basic Tesla for the boring commutes (where in an ICE you'd be burning fuel in the heart of city centres for no reason), and if you still yearn ICE for the visceral nostalgia something like this for the epic adventures.

Unfortunately it's a simple fact of physics you can't get both a large comfortable saloon and a track focused machine all in one package, despite BMW's claims. If, like me ,you are unwilling to compromise buy two cars, I'm sure no-one will think any the worse of you.

 

[zenmaster]

@zenmaster. OK so here is what my S60 -> P85 budget (using finest man maths) bought me.

View attachment 231549

Seen above on the Transfagarasan highway, 500+ miles away from the nearest Supercharger.



So forget the M3 (or Model 3 Performance with AWD), buy a basic Tesla for the boring commutes (where in an ICE you'd be burning fuel in the heart of city centres for no reason), and if you still yearn ICE for the visceral nostalgia something like this for the epic adventures.

Unfortunately it's a simple fact of physics you can't get both a large comfortable saloon and a track focused machine all in one package, despite BMW's claims. If, like me ,you are unwilling to compromise buy two cars, I'm sure no-one will think any the worse of you.

I'm doing something similar. My point wasn't that you get the best track focused car in the BMW M3 sedan or even in the M4, but rather that the performance attributes which that type of buyer is attracted are much more suited to the demands of a track. That's the whole idea behind the "M" branding anyway.

 

[Cloxxki]

Seems to me Tesla gets all the 0-60 out of a configurationt they can. Not that they need to, but they like to.
The P models obvious they work on most.

I think the 0-60 times will depend mostly on the 2170 specification we'll see making up for that 75kWh. If the same chemistry as the latest 18650's, it my well add up to LESS peak output power than the Model S75D. Just because the juice won't flow any faster. If (as I expect) the energy density improvement will be partially negated by going to a more power dense specification, it would immediately flip the other way, to being motors-limited.

 

[zenmaster]

Seems to me Tesla gets all the 0-60 out of a configurationt they can. Not that they need to, but they like to.
The P models obvious they work on most.

I think the 0-60 times will depend mostly on the 2170 specification we'll see making up for that 75kWh. If the same chemistry as the latest 18650's, it my well add up to LESS peak output power than the Model S75D. Just because the juice won't flow any faster. If (as I expect) the energy density improvement will be partially negated by going to a more power dense specification, it would immediately flip the other way, to being motors-limited.

What are the relative costs of the different motors? Also, what are the other associated component costs to upgrade to a "P"?

 

[Swampgator]

I'm not sure there is going to be single-motor Model 3 75. Such a configuration only existed on the Model S 85 because dual-motor was not developed yet.

Most of the first production runs will be 75 RWD. Tesla needs to build simple configurations but try and maximize profits early on. The 75 RWD will be just as easy to build as the 60 RWD but bring in more profit. I also think all initial builds will be glass roof and premium interior. You just pick color and wheels as Elon has stated.

 

[smac]

I'm doing something similar. My point wasn't that you get the best track focused car in the BMW M3 sedan or even in the M4, but rather that the performance attributes which that type of buyer is attracted are much more suited to the demands of a track. That's the whole idea behind the "M" branding anyway.

To be honest I think you and I are in the minority of car buyers.

Even before Tesla when people were buying M3's I often wondered to myself why they would pay so much more money commuting in a car so ill-suited to the task, and not trade it in for a econobox + a weekend toy.

I suspect most of it was about "garage jewellery". They thought the drilled discs made them look cool, and the 4 exhausts showed potency. Reality they were stuck in traffic 9-5 day in day out like every one else, just paying more at the pump.

A huge perk the Tesla P cars have, is in terms of running costs, for the mundane journeys there is (near) zero downside vs the more basic variants. You really can have your cake and it eat to an extent.

Now of course the PxxD appeals to the same crowd who would have bought the M3 in years gone by, but at least now they aren't doing as much harm to the planet

 

[smac]

Most of the first production runs will be 75 RWD. Tesla needs to build simple configurations but try and maximize profits early on. The 75 RWD will be just as easy to build as the 60 RWD but bring in more profit. I also think all initial builds will be glass roof and premium interior. You just pick color and wheels as Elon has stated.

I agree.

Which put's the premium pack and upgraded battery at around $7k to hit the expectations of initial $42k average sales price.

Will be interesting to see the breakdown between those options.

 

[Swampgator]

One other point to restate (sorry Elon) is that those initial 75 RWD's will do 0-60 in 5.2 secs, and not the 5.6 seconds the anti sell sheet indicates.

 

[Troy]

I'm not sure there is going to be single-motor Model 3 75. Such a configuration only existed on the Model S 85 because dual-motor was not developed yet.

Hi, eladts. Chek out Elon's tweet here a year ago and his comments here last week. Currently, dual motors is a $5,000 option in the Model S design studio if you select the 75 kWh battery. It is expected to cost less based on Elon's tweet here. My best guess is $4,000.

 

[Cloxxki]

I'm such a Tesla nerd but only found second hand reports of that intial 75kW offering rather than the true base car.

As Elon says, in large enough production, cost approaches the raw material cost. The P motors are a bit bigger and hevier, but really, how much const can that add over an initial batch of 100,000 motors, even if the non-P gets a 500,000 batch? Might in reality come down to a triple or even double digit dollar additional cost. It sucks for me to pay 10x or 100x cost for such options. Makes me feel like a fool.

Thinking of battery sizes and P... I can now imagine the the non-P models will have somewhat disappointing charging speeds. Larger cells, lower C rate. Say, 60 and 75kW for the 60 and 75kWh versions.
The P cars could get altered chemistry in the largest size, barely squeezing in 75kWh still, but with vastly better C rate. To enable true Ludicrous 0-60 performance of sub-2.4 seconds. The power battery would "justify" the upgrade from that perspective, handling racey driving much better without overheating, but also the supercharging rate would be much better. Say, 125kW for a good part of the cycle. Compared to the cells Ioniq uses, still slow. 500mph/800kph charging, that's worth a premium to me.
When 350kW CCS chargers start popping up, Tesla can't stay on the slow and dense and cheap li-ion path forever. It's matter of time before someone launches a spaceous Model 3 competitor with same range and really fast charging.

It would make a lot of sense for Tesla to transition into power cells though the P versions, and maybe stock on Model S/X.
Leaving the cheapest high density cells for the $35K Model 3 and maybe $40-50K Model Y. Those cars are less for people with high hourly rates, less need to travel 1000 miles a day and hurry hurry hurry.

 

[daniel]

Most of the first production runs will be 75 RWD. Tesla needs to build simple configurations but try and maximize profits early on. The 75 RWD will be just as easy to build as the 60 RWD but bring in more profit. I also think all initial builds will be glass roof and premium interior. You just pick color and wheels as Elon has stated.

A lot of Tesla employees who expected to be first in line for the Model 3 but who can only justify the (already expensive) $35K price for a car will be very disappointed if the early production is all 75kWh and they have to wait for their $35K 60 kWh cars while Tesla gives precedence to buyers who can afford $42K or more for bigger batteries, glass roofs, and other profitable premium features.

Speaking out of my butt and with zero knowledge of what Tesla is thinking or planning, I think they need to deliver the base model car to all the employees who have reserved and who order that, before they start selling to non-employees. Tesla promised them first crack, and it would be a hard blow to then tell them they have to wait, because their wages don't stretch to the premium features.

 

[efusco]

A lot of Tesla employees who expected to be first in line for the Model 3 but who can only justify the (already expensive) $35K price for a car will be very disappointed if the early production is all 75kWh and they have to wait for their $35K 60 kWh cars while Tesla gives precedence to buyers who can afford $42K or more for bigger batteries, glass roofs, and other profitable premium features.

Speaking out of my butt and with zero knowledge of what Tesla is thinking or planning, I think they need to deliver the base model car to all the employees who have reserved and who order that, before they start selling to non-employees. Tesla promised them first crack, and it would be a hard blow to then tell them they have to wait, because their wages don't stretch to the premium features.

There will be disappointment and butt-hurt no matter what Tesla does. Those who were early on the wait list and wanted the AWD Performance and going to be butt hurt if they can't get that. Those who want the 60 will be butt-hurt if they have to wait or pay more for a 75. It never really ends.

That said, I think most early buyers would be able to rationalize the higher cost of a 75 now knowing that if they wait for a 60 there's a chance they'll miss out on the tax credit and thus their net cost will end up higher anyway if they wait.

 

[JeffK]

I wish I had heard the conversation first hand about the big battery being available. I mean if someone told me the big battery would be available from the start then I might either assume it is only the big battery or that it's both the big battery and the smaller battery.

 

[tsla007]

Yes, this is a fantastic question.
One-how much longer will it take
How much more will it cost
Will that affect incentive amount
will I die between now and then
How much is each option-d p l ap etc.
I'm hoping for all of you that these details come out at the same time the first people who ordered get to config their cars to help those
who need to make a decision based on time and money.

 

[Swampgator]

Remember although Tesla does not discount even for employees, they could still offer them favorable payback/loan terms that would make the more expensive cars affordable for most of their employees.

 

[daniel]

There will be disappointment and butt-hurt no matter what Tesla does. Those who were early on the wait list and wanted the AWD Performance and going to be butt hurt if they can't get that. Those who want the 60 will be butt-hurt if they have to wait or pay more for a 75. It never really ends.

That's true, but Tesla seemed really to promise the employees first crack at the cars, which seems to me a different level of obligation than merely meeting the wishes of a diverse group of buyers.

That said, I think most early buyers would be able to rationalize the higher cost of a 75 now knowing that if they wait for a 60 there's a chance they'll miss out on the tax credit and thus their net cost will end up higher anyway if they wait.

But the whole point is that the promise of first crack at the cars meant that employees who are not making all that much money were counting on getting the car at $35K and getting the tax credit. For a lot of them, I'm sure that the car is already a stretch, but they want a Tesla, and this was their chance at getting one under $30K after tax credit. If they now have to pay another $7K (???) to get the car before the credits run out, that will push some of them beyond what they can afford.

I think Tesla wants its employees to be able to get this car. So I think There's a good chance they'll offer the employees the choice of the base model, even if they then revert to fully-optioned cars for non-employees for the first X number of cars.

Of course, it's all just wild speculation until Tesla makes an announcement or opens the design studio with specifics on prices and availability dates.

 

[daniel]

Remember although Tesla does not discount even for employees, they could still offer them favorable payback/loan terms that would make the more expensive cars affordable for most of their employees.

Giving people the option to go into debt over a longer period of time (lower payments, but paying longer) is not my idea of making it "affordable." But then my attitude toward debt is different than some folk's. They own your income until you pay it back. Extending your debt out longer means more years until your income is your own. There may be things that are worth going into debt to buy. But a wise person does not ignore total cost just because the monthly payments are lower.

 

[Drivesolo]

My take on 0-60 times for the highest performance trim level of the Model 3:

2017 Tesla Model S P100DL - 2.4 (Tesla)
2017 BMW M3 - 3.8 (Motor Trend)
2018 Tesla Model 3 P75DL - 3.1 (WAG)

Seems like Tesla has been using 3-series Bimmers as a bench mark for performance but at the same time would not want to encroach on the performance advantage of the Model S. My 3.1 guess is essentially the split-difference between the Model S P100DL and the BMW M3 times. It'd be unquestionably quicker than the Bimmer but the Model S would still be unquestionably faster than the Model 3.

 

[LoL Rick]

Software lock it to 60. Easy peasy.

 

[SageBrush]

Giving people the option to go into debt over a longer period of time (lower payments, but paying longer) is not my idea of making it "affordable." But then my attitude toward debt is different than some folk's. They own your income until you pay it back. Extending your debt out longer means more years until your income is your own. There may be things that are worth going into debt to buy. But a wise person does not ignore total cost just because the monthly payments are lower.

Yep.

The only dance around I can think of would be a lease offer with an inflated residual only for employees, followed by a re-negotiated residual when the lease term is up. That does not strike me as Tesla's style.