Why all the hate for the Aero wheels?

[T34ME]

That's a guara, and nteed the OEM 18's will weigh more than 20lbs. I think they'll be about 25-26lbs. Put the cover on and it'll be closer to 28lbs.

We'll see, you may be right.

Many of you find it necessary to run summer and winter tires. Although I live in So Cal, I am thinking of doing the same thing, "Hotter than Hell" tires for 3 months out of the year and "Summer" tires for the other 9 months.

 

[T34ME]

Also, anyone arguing that covers/no covers makes a substantial difference in "eco-warriorness" is choosing to ignore the enormous energy content embedded in the manufacture of a product as massive as a new automobile.
Robin

You are correct to a point. I agree that the energy content embedded in manufacture of a new EV is massive. However after that new EV has been on the road about 12 months, the savings in hydrocarbon emissions more than offsets the cost of manufacturing energy resources. So, swing and a miss but thanks for playing. What is your next counter-argument?

 

[N5329K]

T3:
Well off topic, but the relative "greenness" of a product is extremely dependent on where you draw the accounting boundaries. It's possible to argue (and some corporate Sustainability Officers have), that armored vehicles, even tanks, can be produced "sustainably." This is nonsense, of course. All they've done is choose to overlook anything outside the boundaries (the factory wall, usually) that might counter their wacky assertion. The supply chain. The raw material extraction and processing, the electric power requirements. The disposal of waste. It really is possible to make it look like an Abrams tank can be manufactured in a "sustainable" fashion if you squint.
So too cars. The numbers I see suggest the embedded energy in a new car (and mind you, this does not account for anything in the waste stream) ranges from 50 to 75,000 kWh equivalent. About five years of electricity used by a typical 3200-square-foot house. A different calculation compares an EV powered by a 100% gas-fired grid to a 40 MPG gasoline car, and, including the embodied energy required to build both cars, the savings is about 30% per mile driven. Substantial, and if you drive a lot it will add up.
But will a new Model 3 really offset its own embodied energy in just 12 months when compared to anything smaller than a Hummer? You'd have to show me how.
Robin

 

[SageBrush]

But will a new Model 3 really offset its own embodied energy in just 12 months when compared to anything smaller than a Hummer? You'd have to show me how.

What happened ? You woke up and decided to throw soft-balls ? ;-)

Think of it this way:
A Tesla without a battery is likely less embedded energy than a car with an ICE, so your question boils down to the embedded energy in the battery. How would you like to account for the multi-generational recycling Tesla plans for its batteries using renewable energy ?

 

[DR61]

Interesting. I just thought it might look good the other way around - change the gloss black areas to matte black, and change the rest to silver. Unfortunately I am crap with Photoshop, but someone more proficient might give it a try.

Agree, I would like to see your idea photoshopped also; I don't have the software to do that right now.

 

[insaneoctane]

T3:
Well off topic, but the relative "greenness" of a product is extremely dependent on where you draw the accounting boundaries. It's possible to argue (and some corporate Sustainability Officers have), that armored vehicles, even tanks, can be produced "sustainably." This is nonsense, of course. All they've done is choose to overlook anything outside the boundaries (the factory wall, usually) that might counter their wacky assertion. The supply chain. The raw material extraction and processing, the electric power requirements. The disposal of waste. It really is possible to make it look like an Abrams tank can be manufactured in a "sustainable" fashion if you squint.
So too cars. The numbers I see suggest the embedded energy in a new car (and mind you, this does not account for anything in the waste stream) ranges from 50 to 75,000 kWh equivalent. About five years of electricity used by a typical 3200-square-foot house. A different calculation compares an EV powered by a 100% gas-fired grid to a 40 MPG gasoline car, and, including the embodied energy required to build both cars, the savings is about 30% per mile driven. Substantial, and if you drive a lot it will add up.
But will a new Model 3 really offset its own embodied energy in just 12 months when compared to anything smaller than a Hummer? You'd have to show me how.
Robin

How old is your data point? This is a rapidly changing topic. Even today the total GHG footprint of a Tesla including the battery is already lower than an ICE. There's a recent article here in Teslarati that explains just how green Tesla is. Here's an excerpt :

• Tesla currently manufacturers vehicles in California and batteries in Nevada. The Nevada battery Gigafactory will be 100% renewably powered with a 70MW solar array and have on site recycling. The Freemont California grid is actually already very clean with 70% from non-fossil fuels (which partially explains the lack of solar there).

So, I think buying a Tesla is great today and only gets better as we improve our grid. Read the article for some relevant and recent data.

 

[insaneoctane]

I'm in the same position right now. I over produce and Edison sends me a rebate check at the end of each year......and that's with a 120v plug-in Prius. I will wait and see what my future TM3 will do to my excess. If I then under-produce, I will have either Solar City throw up another couple of panels or I will purchase a Power Wall, whichever makes sense.

Yeah, I have thought about putting up a few more panels. If SCE continues to offer me $0.13 kWh at night, it would be hard to show a reasonable ROI, though. If, or when they get greedy, I will reconsider.

 

[ElectricKiwi]

All of the above for context - I like the aeros, because they disappear into the tires and the whole wheel disappears into the road, leaving the rest of the design more prominent. Look at any photo of the aero wheels and squint - see how much simpler the design looks? At speed, black wheels look even simpler, as if you were squinting - and my preference is always for the simplest.

You bring up an interesting point. I don't know I've seen any pictures to date of the Aero wheels on a car that's moving.

 

[N5329K]

Sage:
The comparison is not a new Tesla to a new ICE. The comparison is between a new Tesla, with additional embedded energy, to an existing high-efficiency ICE. The greenest car you can choose can, in this way, be the one you already own, rather than the one you add to the global fleet. Even if it's a Tesla. Ditching old ICE vehicles does have to happen, and will. But we should be careful when patting ourselves on the back. The actual "savings" in embodied energy, greenhouse gas emissions, etc etc are not all they might seem. To come back on target, this is why I believe the aero cover advantage is pretty small potatoes and, IMHO, they are unnecessarily ugly.
The recycled battery aspect is all to the good, of course.
Robin

 

[ElectricKiwi]

This being said, I'll be picking up my 3 in blue with the aero wheels. Simply because I can use those puppies for winter. They're better suited for winter since it'll prevent snow buildup in the wheel itself. Which I'm sure anyone who has driven a vehicle with big exposed rims can tell you, getting snow on the wheel throws the balance off. Can't really move that quickly due to all the vibration you'll get from the wheels being off balanced.

This was pretty much my thinking about it, the Aero's will help in winter driving.

 

[T34ME]

T3:
Well off topic, but the relative "greenness" of a product is extremely dependent on where you draw the accounting boundaries. It's possible to argue (and some corporate Sustainability Officers have), that armored vehicles, even tanks, can be produced "sustainably." This is nonsense, of course. All they've done is choose to overlook anything outside the boundaries (the factory wall, usually) that might counter their wacky assertion. The supply chain. The raw material extraction and processing, the electric power requirements. The disposal of waste. It really is possible to make it look like an Abrams tank can be manufactured in a "sustainable" fashion if you squint.

Those of us who are eco-warriors are also peace-warriors - "Hot Damn Viet Nam, Hell No I Won't Go" and I didn't. The only response to your strawman Abrams tank argument is to make them obsolete by eliminating their need.

You'd have to show me how.
Robin

How can I, when your mind is already made up Mr. "roll eyes"? I am not going to engage in endless debate with you when I give you an answer and then you say, "okay, but what about this?" These are the kind of debates that quickly become repetitive, monotonous, and unproductive on TMC. I am a liberal. Believe what you like, I can't make you change your mind, only you can change your mind. EVs are the personal transportation of the foreseeable future resulting in a cleaner environment for everyone. Continue to drive your ICE and I will wave at you as you wait in line for gas at Costco.

 

[T34ME]

Yeah, I have thought about putting up a few more panels. If SCE continues to offer me $0.13 kWh at night, it would be hard to show a reasonable ROI, though. If, or when they get greedy, I will reconsider.

I didn't buy solar panels or a TESLA based on reasonable ROI. I bought these things plus LED lights, low energy appliances, drought tolerant landscaping, etc. as a way to preserve limited natural resources for future generations. It is a matter of liberal philosophy and a way of life.

 

[N5329K]

Those of us who are eco-warriors are also peace-warriors - "Hot Damn Viet Nam, Hell No I Won't Go" and I didn't. The only response to your strawman Abrams tank argument is to make them obsolete by eliminating their need.


How can I, when your mind is already made up Mr. "roll eyes"? I am not going to engage in endless debate with you when I give you an answer and then you say, "okay, but what about this?" These are the kind of debates that quickly become repetitive, monotonous, and unproductive on TMC. I am a liberal. Believe what you like, I can't make you change your mind, only you can change your mind. EVs are the personal transportation of the foreseeable future resulting in a cleaner environment for everyone. Continue to drive your ICE and I will wave at you as you wait in line for gas at Costco.

Costco sells gas?
The tank reference was not an endorsement of the Vietnam war. It was an example of how "eco-warriorness" can be bent out of shape by nearly anyone. Even Tesla customers and supporters.
Tesla is important. It was founded to spark a revolution in transportation and it's well on its way. There's no need for it to greenwash its product by carefully ignoring things that might get in the way. The cars they build are inherently better, from a first principles standpoint, than ICE vehicles. Not perfect. Not by a long shot. And, as we've witnessed (and some of us have dared to notice), they can shoot themselves in the foot through engineering overreach and, occasionally, just plain bad design (that self-presenting door handle wiring bodge comes to mind).
That said, comparing "who's eco-warriorness is bigger" based on a hubcap is just silly. Those who like the looks of the aero covers will see a small operating advantage in highway range. Those who don't should lose not a moment of sleep over it.

Robin

 

[jeff mccabe]

Here's a reason to like Aero Wheels......You can go faster on the highway and still beat energy % estimates !
I have gone to southern California several times over the last two years with my aero covers and can go 75-78 mph and still beat the % estimates.
So all you people who are always in a hurry.. rejoice !

Jeff

If the Aero covers turn out to be more efficient for highway travel I will have them on. I appreciate efficiency. They are not bad looking to me but would look better if they had silver colored accents (the gloss black areas now). I will consider painting or coating them.

 

[FlyingKiwi]

You want a pat on the back and to be called a hero for your great personal sacrifices in buying a Tesla.

No, I just object to being called an idiot in denial when I am neither. I'm just not willing to sacrifice significant quality of life to run round in a recycled Hessian sack and live on kombucha and lentils. I'll make changes that make sense and it finally looks like an EV as a sole form of personal transport is reaching that threshold. Until the M3 affordable EVs have been utter shite that would require me to keep an ICE for weekends and trips,and the costs of doing so do not make it a worthwhile endeavour.

 

[Sportstick]

Costco sells gas?

Yes, and actually with quite a good detergent package. They are a multiple of EPA requirements and have earned Top Tier status. Additionally, their stations are newer than most, and have high turnover, so the likelihood of impurities in the ground tanks is lower. I use them consistently in our current cars for both regular and premium requirements.

 

[SageBrush]

The comparison is between a new Tesla, with additional embedded energy, to an existing high-efficiency ICE.

When you 'ditch' your high efficiency ICE, does it go to the junkyard ? Add extra miles to world wide fleet ? Or somewhere down the food chain send an even worse gas hog to its grave ?

It is hard to come by hard data but my impression at least is that it is some of #2 and mostly #3
And as such, it is a strong net positive action.

 

[T34ME]

I'm just not willing to sacrifice significant quality of life to run round in a recycled Hessian sack and live on kombucha and lentils.

Now you've done it, insulted my regional attire and national dishes. Give me some good kombucha and lentils with some kaladetz and blahchinda on the side and you can eat like a KING....................oh wait, you're a Kiwi, land of Vegemite and chutney ..................nevermind.

I will happily drive my TM3 with aero covers, the kombucha of EVs but I will never buy again a Hessian sack made with NZ wool especially a recycled one with the sheep still inside!

 

[SageBrush]

No, I just object to being called an idiot in denial when I am neither.

Then cease the ridiculous framing and attempts at marginalization of people who care a little more, and do a little more, than yourself.

 

[SageBrush]

Now you've done it, insulted my regional attire and national dishes. Give me some good kombucha and lentils with some kaladetz and blahchinda on the side and you can eat like a KING....................oh wait, you're a Kiwi, land of Vegemite and chutney ..................nevermind. I will happily drive my TM3 with aero covers, the kombucha of EVs but I will never buy again a Hessian sack made with NZ wool especially a recycled one with the sheep still inside!

Lentils I know, chutney I know to avoid, and kiwis are delicious.

I have never heard of, let alone experienced, so the rest so my credentials are in tatters. ;-(