Why do people really want Tesla to fail?

[anticitizen13.7]

At least find a cleaner way to build batteries, because it is a very dirty and overlooked activity. But out of sight, out of mind. Poisoning waterways or child labor
on another continent just doesn't get the headlines that an oil spill does.

The reality is that nearly every aspect of modern technology depends on raw materials that are sourced in environmentally harmful ways or under circumstances that exacerbate humanitarian problems.

This isn't a Tesla problem, or an EV problem, or even an auto industry problem. Anything with electronics, whether it is mobile phones, refrigerators, cars or any kind, drones, etc., uses raw materials from developing nations:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/why-apple-and-intel-dont-want-to-see-the-conflict-minerals-rule-rolled-back/2017/02/23/b027671e-f565-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5922c51b67db

Some companies are actively trying to document and improve their supply chains:

A closer look at our efforts to improve cobalt sourcing - Fairphone

Singling out EVs for this problem is simply a bulls($#! way to argue against EVs. Yeah, it's a problem. For almost everything that makes standards of living in the Industrialized world possible.

Either governments can step in and regulate this stuff (which will turn the free marketeers into crybabies) or consumers can choose to boycott by moving into Ted Kaczynski style cabins (which no sane person in the West is going to do). There's no quick solution here.

 

[JRP3]

Fuel cells or other means of powering a car will change quite a bit in 20 years.

The basic physics of hydrogen and fuel cells will never change. The only thing guaranteed to change in the next 20 years is constantly improving density of electrical storage, which means that EV's will dominate and renewable power generation will become ever more cost effective. Increasing energy density means fewer materials per kWh of storage will be needed, further reducing their impact per vehicle/per mile.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Singling out EVs for this problem is simply a bulls($#! way to argue against EVs.

I don't know what got into me, discussing EVs on an EV forum.

Where did you get that I am arguing against EVs? Are my points that ridiculous? What is so awful about suggesting that the next generation might find
a better way? Should people who are working on more environmentally friendly auto technologies simply pack up their ideas and go home?

Charging EVs in cities <- major infrastructure problems with a high price tag.
EV battery mining <- extremely damaging to the environment and to people

my suggestion <- maybe the next generation will find an even better, cleaner way

This is the reality of the situation and we are having a discussion about it, there is no need to curse and get angry. I'm hoping that autos get much cleaner and somehow you take
that to be anti-environment. It is hard to wrap my head around it. I guess it is not a good alternative fuel vehicle if it is not -your- preferred alternative fuel vehicle.

 

[buttershrimp]

I want Tesla to fail for not designing 6 cupholders in the model 3.... Ridiculous.

 

[JRP3]

Charging EVs in cities <- major infrastructure problems with a high price tag.

Minor infrastructure problem with moderate price tag. The main infrastructure is already in place, the grid. That's what many seem to miss, the fuel distribution system is already in place, is highly efficient, and the fuel source is getting cleaner all the time.

EV battery mining <- extremely damaging to the environment and to people

Every element in batteries is already being mined in quantity for other uses and will continue to be even without evs. To clean up mining you need to find replacements for copper, aluminum, and nickel in the modern world.

my suggestion <- maybe the next generation will find an even better, cleaner way

Unlikely in any relevant time frame. You're essentially praying for a miracle.

I guess it is not a good alternative fuel vehicle if it is not -your- preferred alternative fuel vehicle.

It's not good if it's nothing more than a pipe dream based on hope.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Every element in batteries is already being mined in quantity for other uses and will continue to be even without evs. To clean up mining you need to find replacements for copper, aluminum, and nickel in the modern world.

and cobalt
Cobalt mining in Congo: Child labor still rife

 

[JRP3]

Most cobalt is produced as a byproduct of nickle and copper mining. Though the child mining is unfortunate it's not where most cobalt comes from. I wonder what will happen to those children, and adults, if the cobalt market dries up? Think it will be something good?

 

[mongo]

and cobalt
Cobalt mining in Congo: Child labor still rife

Sorry(ish) for triple cross post:

So in the land of FUD and shade, "Is there such a thing as an ethical electric car?"
Carmakers and big tech struggle to keep batteries free from child labor
Which references the same 2016 Amnesty International report as this 2016 article:
Several automakers and battery makers accused of using cobalt sourced by child labor in Congo
The Amnesty report leaves Tesla out of the Cobalt issue due to getting batteries from Panasonic (who gets Cobalt from the Philippines). Slightly muddying the waters is Tesla later getting cells from Samsung (Hornsdale) along with a potential agreement (in 2015) with LG Chem (which I don't think went anywhere [per @ggr they may have been used in Roadster 3.0 pack]).
Earlier this year, Tesla was in talks to secure another non-DRC source of Cobalt.
Tesla Has Found Yet Another Safe Haven For Cobalt Mining

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Where did you get that I am arguing against EVs? Are my points that ridiculous?

Yes.

Examples from this thread:

Doesn't have to be hydrogen, I just gave an example. Maybe the fuel is CO2. Batteries are still quite dirty for the environment, so there is an enormous need for a better way.

By the way, your response is exactly what an ICE fan would say about EVs.

said no tree ever

What is so awful about suggesting that the next generation might find
a better way? Should people who are working on more environmentally friendly auto technologies simply pack up their ideas and go home?

Charging EVs in cities <- major infrastructure problems with a high price tag.
EV battery mining <- extremely damaging to the environment and to people

my suggestion <- maybe the next generation will find an even better, cleaner way

The point is that people are trying to find a better way right now. Hence the research into making battery recycling far more energy efficient, and attempts at multiple levels to stop sourcing raw materials from conflict zones and from areas where environmental regulation is lax.

Your "suggestion" is substantively empty. It smacks of concern trolling, even if this is not your intent.

This is the reality of the situation and we are having a discussion about it, there is no need to curse and get angry. I'm hoping that autos get much cleaner and somehow you take
that to be anti-environment. It is hard to wrap my head around it. I guess it is not a good alternative fuel vehicle if it is not -your- preferred alternative fuel vehicle.

I am extremely profane on this forum. That's not going to change.

As I stated previously, I conducted my own analysis on battery electrics vs. fuel cell electrics, and reached the conclusion that battery electrics are far more efficient. Either solution requires a lot of new infrastructure investment, but battery electrics require less for the following reasons: (1) They use generated energy more efficiently, so less power generation and transmission is needed to use them (2) DC fast charging stations are much cheaper and less complex to deploy than Hydrogen stations. Hydrogen stations require complicated compression and buffering systems which are more expensive and less reliable than either gasoline pumps or electric plugs.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Most cobalt is produced as a byproduct of nickle and copper mining. Though the child mining is unfortunate it's not where most cobalt comes from. I wonder what will happen to those children, and adults, if the cobalt market dries up? Think it will be something good?

Depends on your definition of "good" there are plenty of other jobs for these kids, just like in every other region of the world with the mandatory military "draft".

Or we could just keep fighting over oil, like this mess in South Sudan

https://players.brightcove.net/665003303001/4k5gFJHRe_default/index.html?videoId=5404404208001

 

[JayyyDeee]

Being Dec 2017 Model S owner I do not want Tesla to fail but I cant help but face palm at the Tesla cult which causes me to take a devils advocate route towards Tesla. Also so far although I love my car the customer service I have received from Tesla is possible the worst customer service I have ever received in my life(not even an exaggeration. It took 4 months with being forgotten about/ignored/lied to by everyone I dealt with at Tesla regarding my DAY 1 delivery issues)

Day 1 issues include: broken door handle,broken b pillar, vibrating passenger speaker, squeaky headliner(not fixed), dashboard and passenger door

Recently developed(yet to be reported): Yellow band on MCU and vibrating driver door speaker

My sister had a minor accident with my car and it took 6 weeks to get a front licence plate mount

My car was recently involved in a hit and run and god knows how long before my rear passenger door will get replace placed.

 

[JRP3]

That's an unfortunate problem with Tesla. Some, (most?), people report great service from Tesla and some report nightmare scenarios. Hopefully Tesla will fix the latter.

 

[papapodcasts]

I think people/websites/investors who are heavily sponsored by oil companies/car companies are the ones wanting Tesla to fail. Think about the range of other EV cars on the market. Aside from the Bolt (which btw also has at least an 6-9 month wait in Ontario), none of the cars come close. Car companies aren't even trying to compete (i.e. lack of advertisements for EV cars). Tesla seems to be the benchmark for EV's and they don't need to advertise or have end of year sales for their cars.

 

[papapodcasts]

That's an unfortunate problem with Tesla. Some, (most?), people report great service from Tesla and some report nightmare scenarios. Hopefully Tesla will fix the latter.

How many of those nightmare scenarios are actually Tesla owners? I think that could be the case with some of these scenarios.

 

[JRP3]

How many of those nightmare scenarios are actually Tesla owners?

Everyone I've seen on this site have been credible Tesla owners. Sometimes the system breaks down in a massive way, even with long time Tesla enthusiasts.

 

[papapodcasts]

Everyone I've seen on this site have been credible Tesla owners. Sometimes the system breaks down in a massive way, even with long time Tesla enthusiasts.

My mistake. I'm new to the forum. Most of the Tesla trash talk is occurring on the same websites that are run by companies who take generous amounts of cash from the oil industries to put down Tesla

 

[Garlan Garner]

#1 reason why I believe people really want Tesla to fail.

Jealousy.


#2 reason why I believe people really want Tesla to fail.

Money.

 

[JRP3]

My mistake. I'm new to the forum. Most of the Tesla trash talk is occurring on the same websites that are run by companies who take generous amounts of cash from the oil industries to put down Tesla

Yes, most of the negativity outside of TMC is garbage but even Tesla makes mistakes at times.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, most of the negativity outside of TMC is garbage but even Tesla makes mistakes at times.

The negativity represented by the stock price is serious. Unfortunately that isn't garbage.

 

[JRP3]

Actually it is garbage. It's a symptom of the market not yet understanding the company. They'll get it eventually.