JRP3
Hyperactive Member
- It seems to bother the shorts much more than the longs, so I'm fine with it. You aren't a shareholder so you don't get a vote on the matter.
Eventually.
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Why do people really want Tesla to fail?
- Thread starter RedOctober
- Start date
You are correct as to why I asked the question. There are no wrong answers as long as it’s their true belief. Most of us Tesla owners are passionate about our cars and the company for various reasons. I’m trying to understand what makes people say the things they say about Tesla and their desires to see it fail. We have all read about it and heard people say things about the joy they will have when Tesla goes bankrupt. Like I originally mentioned, it’s as if they get a prize for being right. I think if bankruptcy was to occurs it will hurt the green energy movement and our planet. We are years away from making a noticeable impact on the environment but are heading in the right direction.
From what I’m reading many disapprove of Elon and how he runs Tesla, but for me, I have taken the personal aspect out of my equation when I think of him. I happened onto Elon and the Tesla Roadster when he was just starting out. People were betting against him so that drew me to hoping he would succeed. Then years later I read the book about Elon and marvelled at his ability to do things most of us could never achieve. I hear he may be a tough person to work for but he is not like others, his brain is wired differently. He has a vision that is so far ahead of what we are looking at that sometimes timelines get messed up. That to me is what makes him so interesting and most likely why others don’t particularly care for him. Call me a fanboy or whatever. I always pull for the underdog to succeed.
And a good representative of the typical short thinking.
Companies have a duty to maximize long term shareholder value. As in Enterprise value. No obligation to make short term profits or distribute dividends. Tesla certainly has enhanced shareholder value already. If it never makes much GAAP earnings consistently or pays a penny of dividend, sharholders will still be happy if the enterprise value is growing.
Enterprise value vs quarterly GAAP earnings is a pretty simple distinction but lots of shorts just don't get it.
Yeah, and companies like Amazon too. Lol.
Amazon also had very poor earnings for a long time. Meanwhile creating massive staggering enterprise value and therefore shareholder value.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
There are a number of people who are short sighted enough to actually be against the green energy movement.
Sorry for making this political.
Given that almost half of America voted for Trump, nothing surprises me anymore.
Given that almost half of America voted for Trump, nothing surprises me anymore.
As much as I have come to dislike SeekingAlpha, I took a look at that article to see what "broken promises" you were talking about.
Caveat: Anything that is basically missed timing, doesn't count as far as I'm concerned. Promising something and missing your delivery date when it's something that's pretty much never been done before isn't a broken promise.
1) Tesla DID have a profitable quarter, then doubled-down on CapEx.
2) "90% of driving functions" hasn't shown up in 2016 - but it's coming.
3) The did their pilot battery-swap program and people didn't want it. If Tesla had poured more money down that hole, the Seeking Alpha would then berate Musk for doing something that had no sales future.
4) Tesla is still negotiating with China and just won concessions from the Chinese government. This, too, is coming.
5) The limited autopilot features are already looking like 40% better than human drivers. Again, the jury is out and progress is being made.
6) Cash flow positive has been an admittedly moving target - especially after getting 100,000 Model 3 reservations before anyone had seen the car.
7) Another cash flow positive comment item.
8) Again. I notice that, while constantly talking about lack of "cash flow positive", no mention is made of the huge increases in sales.
9) The 620 mile range car is there. Perhaps Seeking Alpha's troll didn't notice that's the rated distance of the forthcoming Roadster 2.0.
10) We'll see what the annual rate will be by the end of '18. That's actually what he said - not the deliberate misquote making it sound like 500K *in* 2018. And I notice that the troll didn't mention the INITIAL 500K projection (in the early 2020s) that Musk then accelerated when 400,000 Model 3 reservations flooded the company.
11) When those 400,000 reservations hit, that changed EVERYTHING. If he hadn't increased CapEx to shorten the timelines, Seeking Alpha would have screamed bloody murder about Tesla not responding to it's prospective customers.
12 & 13) More complaining about profitability in the middle of the rampup. The latter was Musk saying Tesla COULD be cash flow positive - hardly a promise.
14) This is the same as #2 - but the troll wants to count it twice so...
I'm finding lots of missed timings - but no actually broken promises. If Politifact were grading these, they would be rated, at worst "In Progress".
In the article they talk about how much less time it took VW, Ford and GM to "ramp up" new plants. Well, those companies already had their logistics in place - sometimes refining them for over 100 years.
One could point out that Ford, when they tried what hadn't been done before, could only build 12,000 Model T cars per year in 1910, after introducing the car in 1908. It was years before Ford sold 500,000 Model Ts in 1916. *All* new manufacturers go through this. Most of them, like DeLorean or Tucker or Bricklin, fail. Funny how Tesla isn't being compared to them anymore. Yet where did I read all those articles a few years ago that DID? Seeking Alpha. And just looking at their articles over the last couple of weeks in a Google search - "Musk has buried Tesla With a Single Tweet". ...because of the pause in production to improve the line. That article will still be there when there are 3,000, then 4,000 and finally 5,000 Model 3's going out the door every week, And Seeking Alpha will STILL look like idiots.
Here are the promises that Musk made that mean more to me...
- An EV that doesn't look like a weirdmobile.
- 300 miles range
- 0-60 in 5 seconds (never mind the Ludicrous Mode he made in his other cars)
- The entire Supercharger network (which still isn't being matched even though Musk showed them how to do it - only now, years later, is one organization TALKING about something high-powered like the SC network)
- Ever step he took along to way to produce the car that *I* could buy. From the Roadster, to the Model S, to the X and now, finally, to the 3.
....and elsewhere...
- Building a rocket with private funds.
- Making it to orbit
- Getting NASA to buy in
- Making it to the ISS
- Landing rockets after use. Even doing a couple of them synchronized after launching his car into an orbit beyond Mars.
- Digging tunnels to find ways to make them cheaper - like he did with rockets.
- Building solar with batteries that are solving problems in Hawaii and Australia while saving lives in Puerto Rico when nobody else could get the lights on.
So pardon me if I don't take seriously the whinings one reads on Seeking Alpha.
Maybe some of us are just frustrated by boneheaded moves by Tesla?
I WISH for them to succeed, but unfortunately think unless they mature, and Tesla get a Tim Cook to Elon's Jobs they are staring down the barrel of failure. The Falcon Wing Doors and over automated production line may seal their fate. (I hope not, but it's not about the money, rather the time advantage they have squandered in resolving these issues.).
Have they shaken up the industry, yes. Have they also in some ways held back the transition to reducing ICE miles travelled, I'd argue in part yes too. My biggest complaints would be if Tesla had been more upfront on the timing of the Model 3, a large number of deposit holders could have taken out a lease on either Bolt or i3-REx / Volt until their Model 3 arrived. I also feel, despite protestations to the contrary, the Supercharger netwrok was always intended to be a walled garden / moat.
After that I find the whole chasing the short-term share price over customer satisfaction thing a little off-putting. Sure all businesses do this to an extent, but I've never felt it in any consumer product I've ever purchased outside my Model S. The way they hold back all the deliveries until the last week of the quarter, then rush them out poorly PDI'd leaving the customer to pick up the pieces to be the worst.
Then there are the true Teslarati, particularly those who have only deposits but have never actually owned the car,. They defend Tesla to the hilt, claiming you are a hater / anti-environmentalist/ short seller / FUD spreader if you have even the smallest piece of real world negative experience..... frankly I get fed up with it, and I know how good the cars are. To non-owners it can be a real turn off.
Finally there is the worst... the referral ticket hawkers. I won't name names, but I was at an I-Pace event, and someone was handing out referral cards. Talk about ambulance chasing. It comes off as hugely unprofessional and reflects badly on the company. I've tried a Tesla, it wasn't for me, please don't try and force it down my throat.
I WISH for them to succeed, but unfortunately think unless they mature, and Tesla get a Tim Cook to Elon's Jobs they are staring down the barrel of failure. The Falcon Wing Doors and over automated production line may seal their fate. (I hope not, but it's not about the money, rather the time advantage they have squandered in resolving these issues.).
Have they shaken up the industry, yes. Have they also in some ways held back the transition to reducing ICE miles travelled, I'd argue in part yes too. My biggest complaints would be if Tesla had been more upfront on the timing of the Model 3, a large number of deposit holders could have taken out a lease on either Bolt or i3-REx / Volt until their Model 3 arrived. I also feel, despite protestations to the contrary, the Supercharger netwrok was always intended to be a walled garden / moat.
After that I find the whole chasing the short-term share price over customer satisfaction thing a little off-putting. Sure all businesses do this to an extent, but I've never felt it in any consumer product I've ever purchased outside my Model S. The way they hold back all the deliveries until the last week of the quarter, then rush them out poorly PDI'd leaving the customer to pick up the pieces to be the worst.
Then there are the true Teslarati, particularly those who have only deposits but have never actually owned the car,. They defend Tesla to the hilt, claiming you are a hater / anti-environmentalist/ short seller / FUD spreader if you have even the smallest piece of real world negative experience..... frankly I get fed up with it, and I know how good the cars are. To non-owners it can be a real turn off.
Finally there is the worst... the referral ticket hawkers. I won't name names, but I was at an I-Pace event, and someone was handing out referral cards. Talk about ambulance chasing. It comes off as hugely unprofessional and reflects badly on the company. I've tried a Tesla, it wasn't for me, please don't try and force it down my throat.
This bonehead really ticks me off. Why would someone wish for a company/CEO to fail when he has been succeeding against the odds? You can criticize Elon’s strategy, but it’s so despicable to bet against the success of the first new car company in America that has come along after many years.
He says new EVs fro Porsche, Jaguar, and Audi will blow Tesla away. Doesn’t Tesla have a competitive advantage with its supercharger network? What use is a car when you can’t conveniently travel long distance? And I also see the software capabilities out of Silicon Valley to be another advantage. Hard to replicate in other countries due to less availability of talent (look at Blackberry). I also think Tesla will naturally create better EVs than traditional automakers because this is ALL they do. All their efforts and “eggs” are in one basket, and that usually results in a better product than a company that only works on EVs “part-time”.
He also says Elon is deliberately misleading investors and will step down as CEO of Tesla. Doesn’t seem plausible at all to me.
Why the hate?
He says new EVs fro Porsche, Jaguar, and Audi will blow Tesla away. Doesn’t Tesla have a competitive advantage with its supercharger network? What use is a car when you can’t conveniently travel long distance? And I also see the software capabilities out of Silicon Valley to be another advantage. Hard to replicate in other countries due to less availability of talent (look at Blackberry). I also think Tesla will naturally create better EVs than traditional automakers because this is ALL they do. All their efforts and “eggs” are in one basket, and that usually results in a better product than a company that only works on EVs “part-time”.
He also says Elon is deliberately misleading investors and will step down as CEO of Tesla. Doesn’t seem plausible at all to me.
Why the hate?
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If the earth warms as much as it is on track too then no amount of cash in hand will matter.
So really Tesla is creating shareholder value every day.
Tesla claims its owners saved ~2.5 million tons of CO2 – releases new map of its fleet’s impact
BozieBeMe2
May I have this dance?
Kudos!
I too reply with the statements that you don't have to like Tesla, you definitely don't have to buy one, but you do owe it to yourself to at least drive one,
Compared to what? Genuinely I'm creating less CO2 in my current car than my previous Tesla.
I've gone from 350Wh/mi lifetime average in my Model S to 275Wh/mi by driving a lighter PHEV that I never* run on gas. Using a grid feed that is partially fossil powered, I'm saving CO2. (This is before the whole embodiment debate).
Ultimately things are not as black and white as "buy a Tesla, help the planet". It very much depends on usage patterns. I sold my Model S after 3 years with < 21k miles on the clock. I'm sure there is a tipping point, but if we are comparing S550 Mercs doing big annual miles to a Model S, then sure. Compare it to a Volt or similar doing <40 mile commutes, with one trip a year, and the sums will not be so clear cut.
(* In my Model S days, I'd opt to use another family car for long trips due to convenience, that car got worse MPG than my current car.)
Sure individual use cases are different. What Tesla is trying to do is change a macro market. The transportation and energy field.
If the creation of energy (solar) storage(battery's) and use (cars) then that will have a profound effect.
If the creation of energy (solar) storage(battery's) and use (cars) then that will have a profound effect.
BozieBeMe2
May I have this dance?
Just ask yourself if SpaceX can be considered successful,, then remember why Elon said he wouldn't take SpaceX public.
Agree, and we all have to be smarter.
For me, buying the Tesla was a gateway to thinking about this stuff, and I am grateful.
Now taking a step back, calculating my actual usage, I see I'm better served with a PHEV, for my use case. I just get frustrated by the BEV purists who don't take the time to actually crunch the numbers.
If Tesla offered a PHEV, I'd be seriously tempted. (And I do wish the original plan to make an EREV version of the S had made it to fruition).
I haven't seen SpaceX's numbers
I admire what they are doing, but Tesla != SpaceX (yet ?)
But here you are on a Tesla forum with almost 2,000 posts. So why are you in this forum, I as you say don’t want it forced down your throat but you come here on a forum about the company you dislike. Something is wrong.
Erm... because I owned a Model S for nearly 4 years, was a one of the first UK owners, and I did like the car! (Though not so keen on some of the quality issues and disorganised service centre staff).
Come replacement time the car hadn't moved on enough on the interior, and the nearest service centre is still 150 mile round trip, which did cause more pain than I expected, so I moved on. Doesn't mean I'd not move back, though for me no local service centre is the deal breaker right now.
I always try to be balanced in my posts, and hope as a someone who has left the Tesla but is still an EV convert, and admirer of the products I can bring some objectivity to some of the discussions, which can otherwise become a bit one-sided.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
I think many of them simply don't like subsidizing playthings for wealthy people. I know you will give the typical 'oil and gas are subsidized' whataboutism line. The context that people see is: 400k AGI guy getting tax rebate for buying 100k luxury car.
And millions of people are turned off by the hypocrisy. The gores and dicaprios of the world with heated pools, yachts, private jets etc demanding that people need to sacrifice. Oh but now they are shamed into buying carbon offsets or whatever they are doing. Maybe do a fundraiser which is just an ego trip.
If these are the leaders of a movement, it is easy for many to be against it.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I have a lot of friends from high school who are working class people. Few of them have much if any awareness at all of electric car tax credits from the federal or state governments. This is mostly an argument I read from educated people and those in the elite classes.
At the ground level, what I hear from men who oppose the "green energy" that JRP3 mentions, is that "green" is girly. People who drive something perceived to be "green", like a Prius, are often called "pussies" and "faggots" by guys I grew up with.
There is some scientific evidence suggesting that this phenomenon is widespread:
Men Resist Green Behavior as Unmanly
"Our own research suggests an additional possibility: men may shun eco-friendly behavior because of what it conveys about their masculinity. It’s not that men don’t care about the environment. But they also tend to want to feel macho, and they worry that eco-friendly behaviors might brand them as feminine.
The research, conducted with three other colleagues, consisted of seven experiments involving more than 2,000 American and Chinese participants. We showed that there is a psychological link between eco-friendliness and perceptions of femininity."
Tesla breaks this perception IMO. It's really tough to argue that a Model S is "feminine" when it can be optioned to do 0-60 in less than 3 seconds.
Those Millions would hate Gore and DiCaprio anyways. Gore because he is a Democrat, and DiCaprio because he represents a sick and immoral Hollywood culture. Not my personal view, but most people I know who hate those guys would have hated them regardless of environmental issues.
