Why FSD will never fully work on current cars

[Daniel in SD]

because none of them are trying to test or develop L2 systems- so that would be totally pointless.

The point would be to test their autonomous vehicles without having to comply with regulations! Tesla also claims to be trying to develop L3-5 autonomy. What's the difference between testing a Level 3-5 system and testing a "feature complete" FSD Level 2 system?

What makes EAP legal in CA, but not the exact same thing that also stops at red lights and stop signs?

Yeah I see the slippery slope argument you are making. At some point it becomes autonomous vehicle testing. I would argue that "feature complete" FSD is well past that point.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

And it's been almost universally fantastic and a huge destresser that made by daily drive 10,000 percent better.

it's literally the reason I bought a Tesla.

So YMMV I guess.

Yeah. Probably. I don't have a freeway commute so hard for me to get enough seat time with it enabled. I just don't like the way it drives, though largely that could be remedied. The one chance I had to see whether it slowed for abruptly stopped traffic that I knew was coming ahead (same spot every morning), I wimped out and took control. I just didn't think it would anticipate far enough in advance and figured it would slow down too fast and increase likelihood of rear end collision.

I just feel like these problems will be much more common with FSD though - it's a much more complicated environment with many corner cases so the tending of it will be trickier. And how will it know that I like to stay in the left hand lane for as long as possible on Mira Mesa before the right turn onto Pacific Heights where I cut in (without remotely cutting anyone off!), or if that is impossible without being an a**, continue to the next turn on Lusk? This typically cuts at least 2-3 minutes off of my commute by cutting in front of a lot of traffic parked in the right lane (because people don't take the right turn filter on Pacific Heights fast enough - there's always tons of room to zip in). Seems tricky for FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

The point would be to test their autonomous vehicles without having to comply with regulations!

But also wouldn't be getting useful test data.

Tesla also claims to be trying to develop L3-5 autonomy. What's the difference between testing a Level 3-5 system and testing a "feature complete" FSD Level 2 system?

Who is responsible for actually driving the car.

L2= Driver is always responsible, systems can assist but driver must always be ready to directly and fully control the car at all times.

L3/4= CAR is driving/responsible in one or more domains- driver may need to take over if it leaves the domain it can handle.

Yeah I see the slippery slope argument you are making. At some point it becomes autonomous vehicle testing. I would argue that "feature complete" FSD is well past that point.

I'd again suggest you cite the specific laws you think apply if you believe Tesla would be running afoul of them.


Actually, here, let me save you some trouble-

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/c...essAV_Adopted_Regulatory_Text.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

An autonomous test vehicle does not include vehicles equipped with one or more systems that provide driver assistance and/or enhance safety benefits but are not capable of, singularly or in combination, performing the dynamic driving task on a sustained basis without the constant control or active monitoring of a natural person.

and

For the purposes of this article, an “autonomous test vehicle” is equipped with technology that makes it capable of operation that meets the definition of Levels 3, 4, or 5 of the SAE International’s Taxonomy and Definitions for Terms Related to Driving Automation Systems for On-Road Motor Vehicles

L2 systems don't count as autonomous test vehicles under CA law. No issue with an L2 FSD system there at all.

Until Tesla says the driver is not the driver at all times they're covered.

 

[Knightshade]

Yeah. Probably. I don't have a freeway commute so hard for me to get enough seat time with it enabled. I just don't like the way it drives, though largely that could be remedied. The one chance I had to see whether it slowed for abruptly stopped traffic that I knew was coming ahead (same spot every morning), I wimped out and took control. I just didn't think it would anticipate far enough in advance and figured it would slow down too fast an increase likelihood of rear end collision.

My wife has tensed up a few times as a passenger in such situations. The car has been flawless every time though in stopping with enough room..

It's kinda crap in merges (the EAP car merging in from a lane that's going away) but it seems fine with others merging into my lane and nearly all other highway situations I've seen.

Y
I just feel like these problems will be much more common with FSD though - it's a much more complicated environment with many corner cases so the tending of it will be trickier. And how will it know that I like to stay in the left hand lane for as long as possible on Mira Mesa before the right turn onto Pacific Heights where I cut in (without remotely cutting anyone off!), or if that is impossible without being an a**, continue to the next turn on Lusk? This typically cuts at least 2-3 minutes off of my commute by cutting in front of a lot of traffic parked in the right lane (because people don't take the right turn filter on Pacific Heights fast enough - there's always tons of room to zip in). Seems tricky for FSD.

My expectation is FSD will be able to drive the car for you on that route- but not necessarily do so optimally on every bit of that route...so you'd probably need to go to manual for bits here and here if those 2 minutes are a big deal to your drive.

For my daily highway drive I could probably shave a couple minutes off compared to what EAP/NoA gets me, but it's SO much nicer and easier and lower stress to let the car do all the work I often don't bother.... there's basically one spot (where it goes from 3 lanes to 2) that I do what you do to merge much later and do that manually- the other 99% of the drive is EAP and it's fantastic.

 

[Daniel in SD]

But also wouldn't be getting useful test data.

Tesla claims they're getting useful test data from heir L2 systems. I don't see how the test data would be any different.

Who is responsible for actually driving the car.

L2= Driver is always responsible, systems can assist but driver must always be ready to directly and fully control the car at all times.

L3/4= CAR is driving/responsible in one or more domains- driver may need to take over if it leaves the domain it can handle.

The driver is responsible when testing a L3-5 system too. The driver in the Uber self driving car accident was found to be responsible and could face manslaughter charges.

I'd again suggest you cite the specific laws you think apply if you believe Tesla would be running afoul of them.

I've read the regulations and I think Tesla will be in violation. I feel like Elon is already in violation with the testing he's described himself doing. Keep in mind that these are regulations and open to interpretation by regulators. You and Tesla may think they've found a totally legal and totally cool way to circumvent them but I think that regulators will find differently.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The driver is responsible when testing a L3-5 system too. The driver in the Uber self driving car accident was found to be responsible and could face manslaughter charges.
I've read the regulations and I think Tesla will be in violation. I feel like Elon is already in violation with the testing he's described himself doing. Keep in mind that these are regulations and open to interpretation by regulators. You and Tesla may think they've found a totally legal and totally cool way to circumvent them but I think that regulators will find differently.

I feel with just a couple more messages back and forth we'll really establish the facts and come to an agreement here.

 

[Reeler]

Tesla already has Level 5 up and running. It requires a dedicated tunnel and training wheels on our cars.

On open roads, it will never be much more than it is now. I think we are decades away until you can control some of the unknowns with dedicated lanes, tunnels, etc.

 

[SergeyUser]

Maybe someone with more knowledge in the area can tell me about this, but this morning I had dew on my car and this made AP unable to work. Of course, frost, snow, sleet and at time heavy rain do the same. I even once got splashed by a passing truck that blinded a camera turning AP off.

In some instances the driver can can clean the caneras, but in sleet this would not work and of course if driver intervention is needed the idea that these cars could drive ‘ride share’ with no one in them is out of the question.

I would love this to be the biggest issue with FSD availability! I can live with that.

Sergey

 

[Garlan Garner]

Maybe someone with more knowledge in the area can tell me about this, but this morning I had dew on my car and this made AP unable to work. Of course, frost, snow, sleet and at time heavy rain do the same. I even once got splashed by a passing truck that blinded a camera turning AP off.

In some instances the driver can can clean the caneras, but in sleet this would not work and of course if driver intervention is needed the idea that these cars could drive ‘ride share’ with no one in them is out of the question.

You had "dew" on your car and it disabled AP?

Thats what the accelerator is for.

 

[eli_]

I think self-driving cars are going to get stuck/confused all the time and it will always be like this, even decades from now, Tesla, Waymo, Mobileeye, doesn't matter who. You will just always need to have some humans in the loop to intervene and look after the fleet, that has to be part of the plan.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I think self-driving cars are going to get stuck/confused all the time and it will always be like this, even decades from now, Tesla, Waymo, Mobileeye, doesn't matter who. You will just always need to have some humans in the loop to intervene and look after the fleet, that has to be part of the plan.

The more autonomous cars on the road the less stuck and confusion there will be.

If you have ever experienced Tesla's "drive on nav" feature on the express way...then you will understand my comment.

2 or more Tesla's on the same road with "drive on nave" on.....follows the rules of the road much better than humans do. <-----at least here in Chicago it does.

 

[Garlan Garner]

The title of this thread reminds me of the days when regular ICE car cruise control first came out.

Some people were in tears saying that cars will now be running into one another and massively killing cats and dogs.

 

[dnvr-ev]

You bring up good points. FSD will work on the cars but only in good weather. Maybe future models like the z will be all weather fsd or awfsd compliant with camera jets that clean off the cameras with water. I can already see the the unveiling March 14th 2022, the Tesla Z ride share mini car with camera jets that charges in 10 minutes and goes 300 miles on a 40KW battery.

 

[dnvr-ev]

The title of this thread reminds me of the days when regular ICE car cruise control first came out.

Some people were in tears saying that cars will now be running into one another and massively killing cats and dogs.

Autopilot kills, cruise control kills, FSD will kill, mostly squirrels. A driver has to be in control to override fhe computer, for liability purposes alone. A machine cannot be held accountable criminally, although the owner can be held accountable civilly. The day of a self-driving machine without a human watching over is still a ways away unless we have the exponential AI revolution inthenwxt few years.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Autopilot kills, cruise control kills, FSD will kill, mostly squirrels. A driver has to be in control to override fhe computer, for liability purposes alone. A machine cannot be held accountable criminally, although the owner can be held accountable civilly. The day of a self-driving machine without a human watching over is still a ways away unless we have the exponential AI revolution inthenwxt few years.

I'm already insured for FSD.

I called my insurance company and Enhanced Summon is covered as though THE PRIMARY insured on the policy is the driver.

Period.

 

[fasteddie7]

There's the cameras, but the forward radar also is an issue, as soon as ice builds or it's a little slushy from wet snow the front gets caked in slush and the radar just quits.

 

[ewoodrick]

Maybe someone with more knowledge in the area can tell me about this, but this morning I had dew on my car and this made AP unable to work. Of course, frost, snow, sleet and at time heavy rain do the same. I even once got splashed by a passing truck that blinded a camera turning AP off.

In some instances the driver can can clean the caneras, but in sleet this would not work and of course if driver intervention is needed the idea that these cars could drive ‘ride share’ with no one in them is out of the question.

Simple response. How can you drive with only two eyes? Can you drive with the dew? That's what windshield wipers are for.

By the way, dew isn't generally a problem. If the main cameras can't see, they turn on the wipers.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If Tesla manages to write software capable of Level 5 self driving for the current sensor suite they will be a trillion dollar company and be making so much money that they will have no problem retrofitting all the existing Model 3 to clear water from all the cameras.
More than $80 billion has been invested in self-driving tech and it's still not clear when it will be achievable, even using far more expensive sensors and computing power than the Model 3 has.

 

[aronth5]

I bought FSD when I purchased the car and I never assumed for a minute that it would support ride sharing or be capable of driving without a driver. For those that did in you're in for a let down.
As pointed out by the OP freezing rain, snow and sleet are not going to be addressed by the current hardware and I cannot image Tesla will retrofit hardware other then the control unit.
Sure they could swap out cameras with better cameras but I'm not sure how that helps. Until they deal with really bad weather there will always be the need to have a driver to take over.
I am not upset with Tesla just kept my expectations low and will enjoy whatever FSD will be capable of doing.

 

[MikeS1]

This post makes no sense at all, I mean no sense.

Do you drive your car with snow on the windshield... No... Do you drive without defrosting a foggy window or ice... No... You fix the problem so you can see.




Why is this different...........