Why is Tesla trying to talk me OUT of purchasing the Twin Charger package?

[Odenator]

Here are some facts/questions:

1. Will Twin Chargers benefit me (charge faster) if I pull into a Tesla Service Center for a charge?

2. I understand the Super Charging stations bypass the onboard charger, but what about CHAdeMO? Will I benefit there with the Twin Chargers?

3. I'm not a traveling salesman, and when I come home I usually stay home - so no real benefit at home above regular over night charging.

4. I think some of you may say, hey, if money is no concern then get it... however I don't like to throw $$ away.

Any insight/advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

1) Yes, the most common power source is 208v/70amp so you will most likely charge at 44 rated mph.

2) CHAdeMO = DC so bypasses on-board chargers. charge up at 25kW-50kW.

3) Yup, same as me.

4) I am surrounded by CHAdeMO in Washington state, $1000 for this convenience is well worth it to me.

Ultimately as other have pointed out, it depends on where you live and where you think you will want to drive. But since your signature says you have finalized, you probably have already thought long and hard about this.

 

[Bifff67]

I bought the duals and the hpwc. Then I realize I can charge all night even with the reduced cost 1-6AM from my power company so I set it back to 40 amps because I am not near empty anyway and the reduced charge rate may extend the battery life. So one charger and a 14-50 would have been fine.

You are west coast so have more options but so far east coast has little >40amp AC charging, and SC and Chademo are DC and don't use the internal chargers anyway as mentioned previously.

And you can later add the second charger if you find you want to.

We'd like to hear your final decision

 

[passion4audio]

Thank you, everybody, for your input.

I've decided I'll remain with the single charger. If I find adding an additional one later on (at a higher price, I understand) then I'll do it... but am thinking I won't be needing it.

 

[sp4rk]

Bottom line, for me, was flexibility. I want to be able to charge whereever, whenever, as fast as possible. When I get my new house will get an HPWC.
You're going to look forlorn when you meet a Tesla buddy and visit their house only to find they have an HPWC.

 

[100thMonkey]

This is total speculation on my part but I noticed this down sell technique a while back and I suspect it's part of the training to be very anti salesman when you work for Tesla. I can appreciate this but having already owned and put some miles on an EV before ordering the S, I came to feel like a lot of Tesla employees were giving advice about configuration who really had little to no experience with EV ownership, particularly when it comes to the twin chargers. the two most important things with respect to configuration are, IMHO, size of the battery and speed of charging, if you plan on traveling much. It is true, we are blessed with a growing network of high amperage Level 2 (HAL 2) stations in WA and OR and all across Canada and that effects my sentiment. I opted to get the twin chargers, given that I was giving up gas altogether with the purchase of the S and have a wife and two small children.

I wouldn't listen to a tesla rep on this one, I'd do some hard thinking about what you expect form the car and how often other people will be traveling with you and having to stand around waiting for it to charge. Even consider the next guy after you, will they have to wait twice as long for the station to be freed up? how would you feel about that if you were in their shoes? if you don't travel much, then no biggie. if you only travel along the major highways where there will be super chargers then no biggie. But I caution anyone, it's all to easy to underestimate just how much you will love driving electric, the S in particular. Chances are you will want to take it on long trips, even longer trips than you do now. once we found out about the Tesla highway that was put in years ago by Roadster owners, it was a no brainer. I've used the twin chargers on nearly every trip I've taken. Without the twin chargers, our trip from Seattle to Spokane this summer would have required many hours at a low amperage L2 station, we would have missed the last ferry to Quadra Island in BC and just simply would not have been able to drive to Santa Cruz. I found early on that idealizing about how we should all be more zen and stop and smell the roses more gets old fast when you are sitting counting the hours, minutes, even seconds till you can unplug and get back on the road, even with the twin chargers. Sometimes it's been really critical, like getting over a mountain pass before a road closure for rock slide control, or catching that last ferry for the night to get to a friends house on an island. Sometimes it's been a matter of arriving home with just enough time to recharge and change to get back on the road for a pick up at the airport or meeting. No matter how filled out the superchargers get, there will always be a need for high amperage L2, even in the home. Giving yourself more options for charging is a good idea when you are giving up 180,000 gas stations nation wide.

If you live on the west coast, I highly recommend the twin chargers. If you live in a place where there are no HAL 2 chargers now then get the HPWC and the twin chargers if you think you might make this your primary car! Most days you won't need it, but when you really do, it's a serious drag to not be able to get where you want to go in a timely manner. be careful to look far enough into the future with respect to your needs before passing up the chance to get the twin chargers added at a reasonable price. Even if you have none in your state now, it's likely just a matter of time before that changes. the first few years of early adoption go by quickly and the landscape can change surprisingly fast.

 

[Al Sherman]

Sounds as if the OP has already decided.

100thMonkey's advice is sound IMO. You'll drive this car more, and farther just because you want to.

As far as the down sell technique; I can't say if it's policy, or training, or just whatever individual you speak with. I configured back in the stone age (last year) and my "guy" tried to talk me out of the HPWC. "Need" is very subjective. I certainly don't (and haven't) need the HPWC, or the twin chargers. I got them for the few times during the life of the car that I would WANT them. I firmly believe that at some point in the next x number of years I WILL want them. It's just a personal decision based on how much you think the convenience is worth.

I drive my car very little compared to most. It's never been out of the "local" area except a trip to investigate the Normal Supercharger. If/when I do it again I think I'd still get the twin chargers AND the HPWC.

 

[ecarfan]

I completely agree with 100thMonkey's very compelling arguments for getting twin chargers, and am glad I did.

Think long term. There will be more high speed charging opportunities in the future.

Get 'em.

 

[bluetinc]

Am wrestling with the very same question, and in much the same circumstance. I was also talked out of the twin chargers. Here's what I'm thinking.

1. Theoretically you will charge faster at a SC...but only if the SC is pushing more than 50 amps. The sales guy at the Washington DC store told me that their HPWCs don't, and that to his knowledge most SCs don't push more than that. More than anything else, he convinced me that twin chargers really wouldn't be helpful.

Minor note, a single charger is useful up to 40 Amps, not 50.

As others have already noted there are a number in the DC area. Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too.

Here is a map that is starting to get updated east coast high current chargers listed on it. I'm not sure exactly what the charging landscape will look like in 12 months, but as of today, I use mine regularly on the East Coast.

Peter

Tesla Highway - Google Maps

 

[Objective1]

Since the OP is taking delivery in August 2014, it takes a real crystal ball to know what will be best. Cha-De-Mo and Supercharging will continue to spread. DC fast charging may become more and more the norm. Overnight at hotels, one doesn't need dual-chargers to recharge.

 

[Electric Dreamer]

Hi Passion! I had a similar situation when ordering my Model S. They first asked me how many miles I drive per day...answer 2-3....so I only really needed the 60Kwh battery. However, I told Jeff that I planned on taking roadtrips in the future and wanted to be able to supercharge. I also wanted range. So I opted for the P85 because I wanted the performance package, and range and insisted on the twin chargers.

Last year I put a total of 7800miles on my ICE (12months). We took delivery of the Model S in late June this year, and I have already put 5800 miles on her (3 1/2 months) . The car makes you want to drive. :love: So you really need to figure out what you plan to do with your Model S in the next 8 years. I Love having the twin chargers, and I still can't get the TeslaGrin off of my face! Hope this helped.

 

[qwk]

Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long...

This statement is very misleading. The majority of the existing HPC/HPWC's in the wild are not going to charge anywhere near 60mph. Most are 208V and will charge mid to low 40's mph vs. 30 mph with a single charger. In other words you will be waiting about 4.5 hrs with twin chargers, vs. 6.5 hrs with a single charger if you want to add 200 miles to the car. On a trip either wait sucks during the day, so I just plan to get to my charging destination before I go to bed. In this scenario, the car is full in the morning whether you have a dual charger or not.

- - - Updated - - -

if you're staying at the hotel, all you need is a NEMA 14-50 b/c you'll have lots of time and the dual chargers won't make a difference. If the hotel is ok with having folks just stop by and suck up 80kwh of energy, then, yes, the dual chargers will be very nice.

This. Unfortunately, very few hotels will let you charge without booking a room(I have tried).

 

[bluetinc]

Excuse me, taking part of my sentence out of context is very misleading. Perhaps you should both read and quote my full sentence before calling me out.

My full sentence read: "Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too."


Furthermore, regardless of voltage, you are incorrectly calculating your numbers. If you show up at an HPWC that can provide 208V at 80A:

With a single charger, you will charge at about 8,320W, or about 27 miles and hour.
With dual chargers, will be charging at 16,640 W, or about 55 miles an hour.

This is most definitely about twice as long.

Peter

This statement is very misleading. The majority of the existing HPC/HPWC's in the wild are not going to charge anywhere near 60mph. Most are 208V and will charge mid to low 40's mph vs. 30 mph with a single charger. In other words you will be waiting about 4.5 hrs with twin chargers, vs. 6.5 hrs with a single charger if you want to add 200 miles to the car. On a trip either wait sucks during the day, so I just plan to get to my charging destination before I go to bed. In this scenario, the car is full in the morning whether you have a dual charger or not.

- - - Updated - - -


This. Unfortunately, very few hotels will let you charge without booking a room(I have tried).

 

[Gizmotoy]

With a single charger, you will charge at about 8,320W, or about 27 miles and hour.
With dual chargers, will be charging at 16,640 W, or about 55 miles an hour.

Why would the single charger not charge @ its rated 10,000W? Is it because that rating assumes 240V, so if you have a lower voltage you can't fully utilize it? I think that is what qwk was getting at/misunderstanding.

 

[brianman]

Why would the single charger not charge @ its rated 10,000W? Is it because that rating assumes 240V, so if you have a lower voltage you can't fully utilize it? I think that is what qwk was getting at/misunderstanding.

I only skimmed, but he might be referring to losses.

Losses aside, let's take a couple examples...

Example 1a
S HPWC set @ 80A on 240V
Twin chargers incoming power 19.2kW

Example 1b
S HPWC set @ 80A on 240V
Single charger incoming power 9.6kW

Example 2a
S HPWC set @ 60A on 240V
Twin chargers incoming power 14.4kW

Example 2b
S HPWC set @ 60A on 240V
Single charger incoming power 9.6kW


1a vs. 1b:
(19.2-9.6)/9.6 = 100% faster ("twice as fast")

2a vs. 2b:
(14.4-9.6)/9.6 = 50% faster

Point in my examples: The amperage limit set on the HPWC matters. Single charger will max at 40A not at "half the HPWC setting".


I believe you can replace "HPWC" with "public J1772" and the same logic applies.

 

[bluetinc]

Why would the single charger not charge @ its rated 10,000W? Is it because that rating assumes 240V, so if you have a lower voltage you can't fully utilize it? I think that is what qwk was getting at/misunderstanding.

Yes, as Brianman noted, the single charger is limited to 40A, regardless of voltage*. Tesla uses 250Vx40A = 10kW for their numbers, but you only will see 10kW if you are at 250V. At 200V you will only see 8kW. On the flip side, if you happened to be able to connect to a 277V source, you would see 11kW. At home, I see about 246V, so my numbers there are very close to those quoted by Tesla but at public charging stations, I typically see about 195V-205V.


Brianman, yes, you can replace HPWC with J1772. A J1772 providing up to 40A (almost all tend to be limited at 30A), will appear identical to cars with single or dual chargers. One's that provide above 40A will allow cars with dual chargers to make use the the extra power available above 40A.

Peter




* limit of 20A at 120V

 

[qwk]

Minor note, a single charger is useful up to 40 Amps, not 50.

As others have already noted there are a number in the DC area. Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too.

Here is a map that is starting to get updated east coast high current chargers listed on it. I'm not sure exactly what the charging landscape will look like in 12 months, but as of today, I use mine regularly on the East Coast.

Peter

Tesla Highway - Google Maps

This is your exact quote. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how is my quote out of context? Furthermore, I hope that any owner with a single charger that wants to utilize the full 30mph rate is smart enough to pick a NEMA 14-50 over a 208V HPC/HPWC(not really rocket science), as there are literally hundreds of them within any 500-1000 mile stretch of any highway in the US.

I really don't care if anyone here buys the twin charger or not, but it's better to set their expectations to reality, rather than the best case scenario(which is rare).

BTW, you have to take voltage drop into account if you are going to calculate mph charging. I have yet to see anywhere near 240V on 80A, while 240V on a Nema 14-50 is pretty common. My personal experience is the higher the load, the more the voltage drop is in most locations(even if the wire gauge is to within code).

 

[Gizmotoy]

Interesting, thanks for the details. Seems like rating the chargers by max amperage instead of kW in Tesla literature would be more accurate, then, given the limitation is actually in current draw. 10kW sounds better than 40A for the marketing people, though.

 

[brianman]

Furthermore, I hope that any owner with a single charger that wants to utilize the full 30mph rate is smart enough to pick a NEMA 14-50 over a 208V HPC/HPWC(not really rocket science), as there are literally hundreds of them within any 500-1000 mile stretch of any highway in the US.

You lost me here. Why is a 14-50 better than an HPC/HPWC (set at 40A)?

I think you're saying that all 14-50 outlets are > 208V which is definitely not the case. I've seen as low as 188V on a 14-50R.

 

[qwk]

You lost me here. Why is a 14-50 better than an HPC/HPWC (set at 40A)?

I think you're saying that all 14-50 outlets are > 208V which is definitely not the case. I've seen as low as 188V on a 14-50R.

A single charger can only utilize 208V@40A on a 208V HPC. It won't ever go over 40A to compensate(in order to reach 10kw). I have never ran into anything lower than about 230V on a 14-50 pulling 39/40A(about 50 different outlets). Either there is definitely something wrong with the 188V 14-50 that you used, or it was somehow hooked up to 208V.

 

[bluetinc]

14-50s are wired to 208V sources all the time. There is nothing incorrect in having a 14-50R wired to a 208V source. You will see this at almost all commercial establishments that are fed by three phase power. All 14-50s at Tesla stores I have ever seen have always been 208V along with some RV parks.

If you have a single charger and you have an HPWC set to >40A and a 14-50 next to it, other than small voltage drops under load due to wire sizing, there will be no difference in charging between them.

Peter

A single charger can only utilize 208V@40A on a 208V HPC. It won't ever go over 40A to compensate(in order to reach 10kw). I have never ran into anything lower than about 230V on a 14-50 pulling 39/40A(about 50 different outlets). Either there is definitely something wrong with the 188V 14-50 that you used, or it was somehow hooked up to 208V.