Why is the CCS being adopted as the standard?

[dgodfrey]

I thought I had seen most all the early videos on charging, as I was researching for my patent at the same time. I've not seen this one, thank you so much for putting it up. It also pretty definitively squashes the whole idea that CCS proceeded tesla's nacs.

You’re very welcome, but even in this thread, you will still get pushback from CCS apologists. I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to except it but the confirmation bias against Tesla is bizarre.
What seems so odd to me is why anyone would champion the lesser solution to be the future standard. Saying it’s too late for existing manufacturers to adopt the NACS is preposterous since the EV market is still in single digits of the whole automotive market. It’s still the first inning.

 

[Rocky_H]

It’s still the first inning.

But does it have a pitch clock?

 

[E90alex]

You’re very welcome, but even in this thread, you will still get pushback from CCS apologists. I really don’t understand why it’s so hard to except it but the confirmation bias against Tesla is bizarre.
What seems so odd to me is why anyone would champion the lesser solution to be the future standard. Saying it’s too late for existing manufacturers to adopt the NACS is preposterous since the EV market is still in single digits of the whole automotive market. It’s still the first inning.

No one denies that the Tesla connector is a better design. But it’s too late because despite Tesla renaming it “NACS”, it is still not a standard recognized by the standards bodies. By the time if/when the standards bodies accept it as a standard and other automakers engineer it into their cars it’s going to be 10 years down the road and Tesla will likely not be the market share leader anymore. That’s aside from the previously mentioned differences in Tesla and CCS signaling protocols that would require much more work than just changing the shape of the hole on the side of the car, and that the Tesla connector still cannot be used in Europe.

Tesla should work with other automakers and the international standards bodies to develop the next generation of universal connectors that can surpass the technical limitations of the current connectors.

 

[henderrj]

No one denies that the Tesla connector is a better design. But it’s too late because despite Tesla renaming it “NACS”, it is still not a standard recognized by the standards bodies. By the time if/when the standards bodies accept it as a standard and other automakers engineer it into their cars it’s going to be 10 years down the road and Tesla will likely not be the market share leader anymore. That’s aside from the previously mentioned differences in Tesla and CCS signaling protocols that would require much more work than just changing the shape of the hole on the side of the car, and that the Tesla connector still cannot be used in Europe.

Tesla should work with other automakers and the international standards bodies to develop the next generation of universal connectors that can surpass the technical limitations of the current connectors.

First, Tesla is already working with the international stands as bodies. Look for instance at the semi truck. Secondly, the only reason a standard is a standard is because all the people who are building something around it decide to call it a standard! If companies other than Tesla start using their adapter, it'll eventually become a standard. If people start to notice the significant difference in size and elegance of the Tesla adapter versus the ccs adapter I think they may start asking for it.

As to the idea that there is signaling going on that is different between the two, as I've said before, it's very simple to program a chip to do more than one thing. This is a non-issue.

As has been said, we're very early in the EV game. Lots of things can change!

 

[White Shadow]

If TESLA R1S existed, I probably would be driving it too - BUT it's not, and THAT is my point! You drive the product, not the gas/charge station.

I drive an EV for convenience, not to save the planet. I will eventually install a wall charger but downgrade it to charge at 12 amps for battery longevity. Extension cords are annoying too.

I use the SUPPLIED J-plug supplied "free" by Tesla at the Chargepoint level 2 unit at work - it is a high speed and charges at 20-23 miles per hour. It's free and reasonably convenient, for now. There are a few free chargers that you can use whilst shopping or eating lunch etc - again, it beats waiting at a Supercharger station.

To be honest, I use my mobile charger at 120V at home. I am refueling my EV whilst watching a late-night TV show, making love to my honey, or just sleeping overnight, not freezing my ass off at some gas/charge station for 20-30 minutes. Unless you drive 100 miles each way every day, even a home charger will give you 20+ miles an hour (my T3 charges at 7.7kW) at 13 cents per 1kW. What if I have to drive 400-mile trips?? I use my Prius hybrid. Another point, have you noticed how much time you spend at a freeway gas station stop? I bet it's more than 20 minutes. The supercharger problem is solved. The only reason I object to other EV's using the Superchargers is that I don't want to mix with pheasants! Ok, only joking!

Why do I drive a hybrid? Because I have range anxiety in a regular gas-guzzling ICE vehicle that gives 20 miles per gallon on those long trips. Be honest, how often do you look for the next gas station when doing those 500-mile trips in an ICE vehicle? Why does the AAA have rescue vehicles that carry gas cans? How often do you use the features of a truck? I have carried 12 feet long floorboards, bags of concrete, etc in a minivan. I love its low-loading trunk. I hated doing the same thing in my Toyota T100 bed. I also tow the boat, and trailer with my minivan. Who needs a truck except for contractors? Stupid Useless Vehicles (SUVs) are impractical when compared to minivans. SUVs are for soccer moms.

What you seem to be saying (in the equivalent ICE world ) is, I won't drive a Ferrari because those F150s and Tahoes use the same gas stations that I do, and I hate waiting 10 minutes behind them to get my gas. You seem to have fallen for an ICE propaganda trick.

No, I think you just don't understand my thought process. I'm a car guy, but I'd also love to go electric. That doesn't mean giving up my ICE cars, it just means adding an EV. That said, Tesla vehicles don't really appeal to me for various reasons, but their biggest advantage for me is Tesla's supercharger network. I know that might seem to be a strange thing to say after mentioning that I'm not planning to give up my ICE vehicles, but in reality I do a lot of road trips and I'd like to be able to do that in an EV without major headaches. The supercharger network is the best way to do it today, although I admit that may eventually change. And now that the supercharger network is being opened to all EVs, then I have less inclination to buy a Tesla since I'm not a big fan of their actual product anyway. I find the Rivian R1S much more appealing than anything that Tesla currently makes. It's sort of the EV version of my Grand Cherokee, which I absolutely love.

My Grand Cherokee can do 500 miles on a full tank and I have no problem at all doing just that even during a road trip. That's because there are gas stations everywhere. Zero anxiety for me. I already know that when my Jeep tells me I have zero miles of range left, there's still about 1.5 gallons left in my 24.5 gallon tank. And even under the worst conditions, that will still get me another 30 miles or so. I've never had to drive anywhere near 30 miles to find a gas station. As for the utility part of owning a Grand Cherokee, yes, I absolutely use it all the time. My favorite three things to do are skiing, mountain biking, and kayaking. I also like to snowmobile, jet ski, and go hiking. Having a capable SUV helps with all the outdoor stuff I like to do. I could probably do some of that stuff with a car, but not all of it. My family also has a winter cabin in upstate NY that is up an unmaintained road (basically a trail) that is usually snow covered all winter long. You really need a capable machine to get up to the cabin. So yeah, a Rivian R1S would be a better fit for me than anything Tesla offers right now.

As for your comparison to waiting 10 minutes for gas, well, I think you're way off base here. First, it's completely apples and oranges, no? It remains to be seen, buy my guess is that there will be some long waits as non-Tesla vehicles charge at superchargers. Especially slow-charging cars that will clog up the chargers. I wonder if Tesla will eventually open up all their locations or if they'll only do it in locations that are lower usage? I guess time will tell. But anyway, you really have it backward as far as I'm concerned. It's not that I don't want a Tesla because they opened up the chargers....it's more like I want a Rivian because they opened up the chargers. It's a win-win for non-Tesla EVs to have access to the supercharger network. There's really no net positive for Tesla owners though.

 

[israndy]

Other than the price of charging going down at SpCs and there being a LOT more of them. Some day you won't need to drive more than 30 miles to find a Supercharger either, but it's just ONE company making them so it'll take time to blanket the planet

 

[jeremymc7]

Other than the price of charging going down at SpCs and there being a LOT more of them. Some day you won't need to drive more than 30 miles to find a Supercharger either, but it's just ONE company making them so it'll take time to blanket the planet

Some day we'll be able to charge when driving down the road or even parked outside.

 

[Earl]

Because Tesla initially wanted to keep it to themselves and didn’t open up the design to other manufacturers without massive strings attached for using their patents until recently and it’s too late now for other manufacturers to switch plug designs.

If they were truly open and collaborative to the plug design 10-15 years ago we may be in a different world now.

Note how, there are so many newbies (~2021 - 2023) to this and nearly all EV forums who harp and harp about how evil Tesla was for developing their own standard and the promote likes and mis-truths for the EV-hampering CCS and against the Tesla Connector (aka NACS)? Funny how this timing was about the same time as legacy ICE car manufactures finally resigned themselves to having to make EVs.

Now, on this and every other forum, these shills quickly appear and incessantly regurgitate the same nonsense over and over again forcing the OG to rebut it just to keep the truth in the discussion. It's very annoying. I hope these shills get well paid and buy EVs with their earnings.

I guess if the legacy ICEmakers can't make a viable EV, they can hire a bunch of losers to try to drag down those who can.

 

[TheHippo]

Note how, there are so many newbies (~2021 - 2023) to this and nearly all EV forums who harp and harp about how evil Tesla was for developing their own standard and the promote likes and mis-truths for the EV-hampering CCS and against the Tesla Connector (aka NACS)? Funny how this timing was about the same time as legacy ICE car manufactures finally resigned themselves to having to make EVs.

Now, on this and every other forum, these shills quickly appear and incessantly regurgitate the same nonsense over and over again forcing the OG to rebut it just to keep the truth in the discussion. It's very annoying. I hope these shills get well paid and buy EVs with their earnings.

I guess if the legacy ICEmakers can't make a viable EV, they can hire a bunch of losers to try to drag down those who can.

If you have to set up a strawman, your argument probably isn't very good.

 

[Earl]

If you have to set up a strawman, your argument probably isn't very good.

No argument, just an observation and hypothesis. Welcome to the forum. Stick around. You'll either learn things or keep getting shill payments. Either way, it will be good for you.

 

[TheHippo]

No argument, just an observation and hypothesis. Welcome to the forum. Stick around. You'll either learn things or keep getting shill payments. Either way, it will be good for you.

I am sure there is nothing that makes new members feel more welcome than you calling them "shills".

 

[Earl]

I am sure there is nothing that makes new members feel more welcome than you calling them "shills".

Only the shills will feel unwelcome but that's ok, they're getting paid. The rest will be happy to learn things from all of the brilliant folks who openly share their experiences and knowledge here, and share some of their own.

 

[TheHippo]

Only the shills will feel unwelcome but that's ok, they're getting paid. The rest will be happy to learn things from all of the brilliant folks who openly share their experiences and knowledge here, and share some of their own.

Name-calling is what little kids do in elementary school.

 

[henderrj]

Only the shills will feel unwelcome but that's ok, they're getting paid. The rest will be happy to learn things from all of the brilliant folks who openly share their experiences and knowledge here, and share some of their own.

I've been following Tesla since 2009. Tried to do an EV conversion in the 80s. Calling new EV aficionados shills - I'm sorry - but it's out of line. Could they be wrong or misinformed? Sure. But how about let's educate and not denigrate?

 

[ucmndd]

I've been following Tesla since 2009. Tried to do an EV conversion in the 80s. Calling new EV aficionados shills - I'm sorry - but it's out of line. Could they be wrong or misinformed? Sure. But how about let's educate and not denigrate?

For every millennial shill there’s a TeslaBoomer (tm) that thinks their join date is sufficient justification to denigrate and dismiss any opinion that does not blindly toe the company line as a compensated anti-Tesla troll.

And thus the circle remains unbroken.

 

[ucmndd]

Meanwhile there’s a GenX in the middle (~2016-2017 join dates) and true to stereotype nobody remembers we exist and we hate you both.

 

[henderrj]

Meanwhile there’s a GenX in the middle (~2016-2017 join dates) and true to stereotype nobody remembers we exist and we hate you both.

Thanks for the insertion of humor. I'm in the group that guffaws! Got a good belly laugh out of that one. (Have I identified my age group well enough yet?)

 

[Chuq]

On the standards question, I thought people may appreciate these maps I've worked on (and would appreciate feedback on, if there are any corrections!)

They look very similar at first glance, but... first one is what plug Tesla uses; second is what plug is the primary standard (with diagonal lines suggesting de facto standard, based on photos from Plugshare).

Take note that orange represents a different connector in each map. (Sorry if that's confusing, I didn't originally intend them to be viewed next to each other)

 

[DblOSmith]

I am sure there is nothing that makes new members feel more welcome than you calling them "shills".

I had a post deleted and the reason given was "state shaming" because I hurt the state of California's feelings, I guess? Never happened when I talked bad about Alabama where I currently live.

Life is cruel and unfair at times! *fainting couch*

 

[unk45]

The OP asked a question and nobody answered. here are the facts:
When Tesla developed Superchargers there was no established standard so Tesla made one.

There was none in Japan when Nissan was building the leaf and Mitsubishi the iMIEV. So, Tokyo Electric and those manufacturers got together and established a standard. That was CHAdeMo, a play on words 'time for tea':

CHAdeMO

www.chademo.com

There was none in Europe so the interested parties, almost all EU manufacturers plus Tesla, most EU public utilities and most EU electrical manufacturers. They added the SAE and most North American electrical suppliers. They formed ChariN:

CharIN – Empowering the next level of e-mobility.

Empowering the next level of e-mobility by developing and establishing the Combined Charging System (CCS) as the global standard for charging battery powered electric vehicles.

www.charin.global

Because the collection agreed that the only base they had was AC, J1772 in NA and Mennekes 2 in EU;
Charging cables Type 2 (Mennekes) for your e-carevexpert.euhttps://www.evexpert.eu › E-shop › Charging cables
SAE J1772 Charging Adapter - Shop | TeslaTeslahttps://shop.tesla.com › product › sae-j1772-charging-...
They took these level 2 types as received wisdom and then designed some additional pins to support high amperage DC. Those became CCS type one and type 2;
EV Connectors - Type 1, Type 2, CCS, CHAdeMO, ChaoJi ...Electric Car Homehttps://electriccarhome.co.uk › Charging Points

Meanwhile China has developed a Standard themselves;
GB/T 20234

COOWA

imo

www.coowa.net

And Japan and China realizing that high power was evolving joins with others and developed ChaoJI; a 500v DC standard. As to be expected that one has a very entertaining meaning, the translation is, as usual, not automatic but 'super-ultra-hyper' is one choice.

In short BEV electrical standards are just like all electrical standards. Most countries have a mishmash or standards that often were the result of odd or even bizarre decision processes producing places like Australia, Brazil, US, and almost everywhere that have different frequencies, voltages and amperages from place to place. That is only the beginning because connector types are the stuff that seems as varied as access and languages.

When many of us cannot understand why our precious TESLA solution does not dominate we only need to wonder why there are so many languages and electrical standards. There's no need to quibble, just understand that adapters and other translators are the stuff of human behavior. No other explanation really is needed.

Note 1: as an EV driver pre-Superchargers, then using the Tesla connector I admit I see no other decent solution. After all, my first real 'BEV language' was Tesla, before which it all was incoherent babbling, just as it is now, just higher velocity./poor attempt at humor.

Note 2: one of my BEVs speaks Tesla original, my other speaks CCS2.

Note 3: They both work fine. Factually I really don't care which one I use.