Why not buy a Mustang Mach-E?

[MXLRplus]

Good post.
If only Tesla added 360 degreee and a heated wheel.should really Aden both ( touched up model x wheels yesterday after my wife accidentally scraped one at car wash).


My feeling is after initial rush.,cost of Mach Ed will decline, making things more competitive.

Heated steering wheels, heated windshields, better glass, fully winterized with snow algorithms doesn't sell EVs in North America. Or you'd be driving the Jaguar or Audi EVs. Tesla's are dead last in EV winterizing. Their cars are barely insulated. Yet they are #1 in sales by a massive margin.

It seems like most, if not all, of the Ford dealers have realized that the reservations are transferable to any other dealer, so the markups have largely disappeared.

Nope. Just now, a 2wd California Route 1 base config =

Dealer Selling Price

Base MSRP
$51,800
Total Options
$0
Destination & Delivery Charges189
$1,100
Total MSRP
$52,900
Difference From Total MSRP
$5,000
Dealer Selling Price
$57,900
Dealer Deposit Due Today
$500
YOUR DEALER
Hemborg Ford

 

[asa8080]

I evaluated the Niro and the Kona. These are going to be contenders: HUD, autosteering, 360 view, well built. Too slow for my taste, but for the Car-As-Appliance crowd, they are much better than their gas counterparts IMO.

Even I rather car-as-appliance person in contrast to my wife, but Niro/Kona for me is just ICE car with replaced drivetrain. All design is backed 5-10 years back and clearly rooted to original ICE car. And even I'm not a big fan of all-touch UI, dozen of physical buttons dashed here and there really annoy me. Besides, touch UI like Tesla makes it really upgradable over time, you can really add new features or change old ones. Good luck with physical buttons!
Besides that "appliance" cost "from" 45k quite like model 3SR+, even after rebate it would be ~38-39k
Just looked at this and say meh, not my cup of electrons...

p.s .like my kids said, in Niro/Leaf even e-tron you're sitting in car from the past. In Tesla you feeling like you're in a car from future. That will not pay your bill but that's a VERY different experience...

 

[MXLRplus]

I'm still waiting on my HUD, CarPlay, 360 view OTA updates from Tesla...

A Kona EV Ultimate (loaded) is $32k for me today.

 

[Ocelot]

Heated steering wheels, heated windshields, better glass, fully winterized with snow algorithms doesn't sell EVs in North America. Or you'd be driving the Jaguar or Audi EVs. Tesla's are dead last in EV winterizing. Their cars are barely insulated. Yet they are #1 in sales by a massive margin.

mmh, maybe if you and Elon moved North you might think differently?

Also our Kia Soul EV, with heated steering wheel, and heated/cooled seats would agree with your comment about driving something else. Not sure how much winter driving you do, but a heated wheel seems even more important in an EV due to range decrease with cabin heating.

Our model X has cooled seats as well (no heated wheel) but you really cant tell that the seats are cooled in the Tesla. With the Kia you can. So I guess that also kinda agrees, in we do drive something else.

 

[asa8080]

I'm still waiting on my HUD, CarPlay, 360 view OTA updates from Tesla...

A Kona EV Ultimate (loaded) is $32k for me today.

it has MSRP: From $45,400 - how did you get to 32k? Even if I consider 7500 federal credit it would be 38k (if dealer will not load it with their "addons" as they like to do)

Personally I can live without CarPlay, I'm using it mostly for navigation and not need that for MY. The only thing I could possibly miss in TX is cooled seats...but with ability to keep climate running as I want quite downplay that. HUD also fun feature, but I'm planning do drive heavily on AP so once again nice-to-have, but not really a need.

 

[psuKinger]

Don't know where you are in PA, but I am too. When I first started driving Tesla's (2014) their charging network was barely adequate. Fast forward to today and it is amazing. Nonetheless, there has also been a big increase in non-Tesla chargers since that time. If you travel the PA Turnpike, I know that almost every rest stop between Harrisburg and NJ has a DC fast charging station (which I've used with my ChaDemo many times). Now I also see DC fast chargers popping up at Rutters and a number of other locations. They have a long way to go, but it is certainly improving.

I'm outside (north and east) of Pittsburgh. And this is good insight and great to see. I'm for the industry as a whole, not just Tesla. I'm glad to see competition for Tesla, and I'm glad to see other power charging options available to all of us (Tesla and other).

But on the "western" side of the state, all the way from the Ohio border to State College PA, between New York to the North and Maryland to the South, there appear to be 5 of those "Electrify America" chargers that have 3 CCS chargers and 1 cha-de-mo charger each. In the same area, I think I count 11 such Tesla superchargers *without* counting the one in Bellefonte (15 minutes to the East of downtown State College and servicing that general area). Most (all?) of which appear to contain 8 stalls each.

I don't have hard facts in front of me, and again, I could be mistaken, but it is my impression that this is the case for a large chunk of America that lies in between the two coastlines...

 

[MXLRplus]

it has MSRP: From $45,400 - how did you get to 32k? Even if I consider 7500 federal credit it would be 38k (if dealer will not load it with their "addons" as they like to do)

Personally I can live without CarPlay, I'm using it mostly for navigation and not need that for MY. The only thing I could possibly miss in TX is cooled seats...but with ability to keep climate running as I want quite downplay that. HUD also fun feature, but I'm planning do drive heavily on AP so once again nice-to-have, but not really a need.

The "Ultimate" trim is loaded. $4000 dealer discount, $7500 Fed, $2000 California, $1000 SCE rebates.

That's OK you can live without real cellphone integration. IMO, Tesla is dramatically inferior in the way it deals with your cell phones. It's certainly more dangerous than CarPlay or Android Auto. HUD Nav is bitchin'. Tesla should have it. It does not. It tells you exactly which lanes you can be in, and it gets it right more than NoA does.

 

[psuKinger]

That's OK you can live without real cellphone integration. IMO, Tesla is dramatically inferior in the way it deals with your cell phones. It's certainly more dangerous than CarPlay or Android Auto. HUD Nav is bitchin'. Tesla should have it. It does not. It tells you exactly which lanes you can be in, and it gets it right more than NoA does.

Yea this is a good call and a fair point. I honestly just don't care a whole lot about panel gaps and stuff like that... it's just not who I am. I'm not a car guy. Never have been. I'm a "tech guy." A gadget enthusiast. That's what brought me to Tesla. And as such, what you said here is probably my biggest complaint with my Model Y. The phone integration (or lack thereof) and lack of android auto is probably the thing I'm most envious of when it comes to comparisons to a Mustang Mach E or Jaguar iPace or Audi eTron... Tesla's navigation isn't bad by any means, but google maps (on my phone) definitely does a better job of telling me what lane to be in at complicated interchanges. And bBluetooth just overall sucks and is unreliable and finnicky (universally, not unique to the Bluetooth in a Tesla). And the native Spotify integration in the Tesla simply isn't very good without using a phone, AND music service integration is pretty much limited to just Spotify (meanwhile I have a lifetime subscription to SiriusXM and the "sublime+" tier on Qobuz, both only work over bluetooth from my phone in this car). It's disheartening.

But I bought the car with eyes-wide-open on this. Because battery range, battery efficiency, the prevalence of convenient local charging infrastructure when on-the-go (both level 2 in town and level 3 along the highways), and the "FSD" package all were (a lot) more compelling reasons to pick one over the other for me... that and the fact that the three competing models I mentioned all either cost a lot more than a Tesla or aren't actually available for purchase yet...

 

[Reeler]

Interesting thread. I have to admit that I fall into the camp of 'the more EV's, the better for everyone' - competition should improve the breed for everyone. That said, I'm interested that there are several folks assuming the Mach-E will be better built. Not sure why that is. And certainly dealing with legacy dealers is not fun in general, whether you're talking buying or servicing. At least with an ICE legacy vehicle, you can take it to your local independent for work. Wouldn't do that with a Mach-E. But I can't wait for the first MY - Mach-E comparos to come out.

Tesla got the worst ratings of ANY brand in the US by JD Power so Ford is likely to be better. I think the problem is that the dealer makes money fixing factory issues by charging that back. Also, they sell from the lot with salespeople who get mad when a buyer walks with shoddy build. At Tesla, the delivery person is not incentivized by commission and Telsa apparently doesn't do much or any QC in the hopes folks will ignore the issues.

Most hate working with a dealer, but I hate more getting Tesla to document and fix flaws. But, I have had body work needing defects with 5 of 8 Tesla deliveries. The most recent Model Y was so bad, Tesla offered to take it back after a few days.

 

[Shap]

Tesla got the worst ratings of ANY brand in the US by JD Power so Ford is likely to be better. I think the problem is that the dealer makes money fixing factory issues by charging that back. Also, they sell from the lot with salespeople who get mad when a buyer walks with shoddy build. At Tesla, the delivery person is not incentivized by commission and Telsa apparently doesn't do much or any QC in the hopes folks will ignore the issues.

Most hate working with a dealer, but I hate more getting Tesla to document and fix flaws. But, I have had body work needing defects with 5 of 8 Tesla deliveries. The most recent Model Y was so bad, Tesla offered to take it back after a few days.

Agree with you. I had bad experience with Tesla delivery and service.

As for MME - we still need to figure out the real range.
My Chevy VOLT EPA is 53, and I always got 53+.
MY EPA is 316, my real range is 270 miles.

The question is what MME will be. If 280 miles as they say now, and it is real - that will be good.
As for charging - there is no question, if you buy non Tesla EV - it is NOT for long trips. Even if you have CCS charge
stations - they charge 5-8 times more (mostly per minute charge) and it will be cheaper to drive Hammer.
However, for long trips, I prefer a better car anyway (neither Tesla nor any other small EV).

Overall, here is what I created to compare the cars:

 

[DanDi58]

How are you rating things like seat comfort, look & feel (ext and int) when the car isn't available yet? Also - what MME trim level are you using to compare to the MY?

 

[Shap]

How are you rating things like seat comfort, look & feel (ext and int) when the car isn't available yet? Also - what MME trim level are you using to compare to the MY?

I used ActiveX perforated seats that Ford mentioned that are currently in use in many Ford cars. Seats will be the same according to Ford rep. My major complaint with MY seats is the headrest. It is not adjustable and my family hates it.

The trim I used is Premium AWD, LR, I also added peal white (600$) on top of this + $229 for protection package. So without it it would be 829$ cheaper. I also did not discount the Mache price for X-Options (2K) that most of us could get. This will drive the price almost 3K down, including taxes.

In my table, I set price importance as low, so it does not make a big difference anyway.

 

[FredMertz]

Heated steering wheels, heated windshields, better glass, fully winterized with snow algorithms doesn't sell EVs in North America. Or you'd be driving the Jaguar or Audi EVs. Tesla's are dead last in EV winterizing. Their cars are barely insulated. Yet they are #1 in sales by a massive margin.



Nope. Just now, a 2wd California Route 1 base config =

Dealer Selling Price

Base MSRP
$51,800
Total Options
$0
Destination & Delivery Charges189
$1,100
Total MSRP
$52,900
Difference From Total MSRP
$5,000
Dealer Selling Price
$57,900
Dealer Deposit Due Today
$500
YOUR DEALER
Hemborg Ford

I say "most" and you counter that I'm wrong because you found one exception?

Just because they are willing to sell it at that price doesn't mean anyone is willing to buy it at that price. All it takes is one dealer in each region to spoil the party and that's what seems to b e happening.

Official List: No ADM Mach-E Ford Dealers

 

[Shap]

I say "most" and you counter that I'm wrong because you found one exception?

Just because they are willing to sell it at that price doesn't mean anyone is willing to buy it at that price. All it takes is one dealer in each region to spoil the party and that's what seems to b e happening.

Official List: No ADM Mach-E Ford Dealers

+1

All people I know who ordered paid 0 ADM.

 

[MXLRplus]

I say "most" and you counter that I'm wrong because you found one exception?

Just because they are willing to sell it at that price doesn't mean anyone is willing to buy it at that price. All it takes is one dealer in each region to spoil the party and that's what seems to b e happening.

Official List: No ADM Mach-E Ford Dealers

I didn't search for an exceptional case. I went to Ford, it found my recommended dealer, and voila Cost Plus. There are over 3000 Ford dealers in the US.

 

[MXLRplus]

Here's my reality. Two times I've have dealerships order a custom configuration of a rare model at MSRP only to have them stab me in the back and return my deposit.

Will Ford do that? No, but their Dealers can.

 

[asa8080]

The "Ultimate" trim is loaded. $4000 dealer discount, $7500 Fed, $2000 California, $1000 SCE rebates.

That's OK you can live without real cellphone integration. IMO, Tesla is dramatically inferior in the way it deals with your cell phones. It's certainly more dangerous than CarPlay or Android Auto. HUD Nav is bitchin'. Tesla should have it. It does not. It tells you exactly which lanes you can be in, and it gets it right more than NoA does.

The most problems with OEM navigation its quite often out dated when you buy a car and cost couple hundred to upgrade each year and it still lag google maps for year or two.
I got once a fresh rental with hud and lanes showing ... was cool but couldn’t not find anything built less then 2y ago. Had to use Gmaps instead...
I agree to disagree if Niro better than Y or vice versa. If I’d looking for commute car maybe, or rather would take “loaded” Leaf 2020 for 26-28k even without Cal rebates But as kinda family vehicle with long trip planned it’s no way for Niro or etron . Just try to plan trip from Seattle to Yosemite which my friend took in MX and compare how longer and more expensive would take other EV to make it.
Besides as I said from very beginning, I just do not like how Niro looks inside, on my personal taste. For someone else it will work great, and that a good thing

 

[Reeler]

The most problems with OEM navigation its quite often out dated when you buy a car and cost couple hundred to upgrade each year and it still lag google maps for year or two.
I got once a fresh rental with hud and lanes showing ... was cool but couldn’t not find anything built less then 2y ago. Had to use Gmaps instead...

Proprietary nav on every brand is DEAD. All major brands have abdicated nav to Apple Carplay and Android Auto (EXCEPT TESLA). Waze and Google Maps are far better than any proprietary solution (including Tesla).

But I get it, proprietary charging cables and proprietary nav is what Tesla is all about. Enjoy your Betamax and Lightning cable until the cool-aid hangover wears off.

 

[rxlawdude]

+1

All people I know who ordered paid 0 ADM.

All the people I know have not paid a penny for their MMEs. They must be free!

 

[asa8080]

Proprietary nav on every brand is DEAD. All major brands have abdicated nav to Apple Carplay and Android Auto (EXCEPT TESLA). Waze and Google Maps are far better than any proprietary solution (including Tesla).

But I get it, proprietary charging cables and proprietary nav is what Tesla is all about. Enjoy your Betamax and Lightning cable until the cool-aid hangover wears off.

You took too much napalm inside yourself twist my words in such way...

Just FYI most major car brand Navs still proprietary, expensive and not very accurate. Quite few have Android Auto so far in units. Tesla uses fork of Google Nav (do not heard complains that Tesla nav could not find what Gmaps could). Besides as it host a full browser, you can use online Gmaps, Waze etc. Try that on the other cars. Yes, I agree it would be great if it also has CarPlay/AndroidAuto however I personally do not really like using Maps over CarPlay - not able to scroll it as on the phone, zoom so easily, find what I need etc. From that prospective I like Tesla nav better especially it's not proprietary as others, but Google Maps based (with + and - of having online nav). So your shot about proprietary navs rather goes to "legacy" carmakers

Not the "lightning" cable you're irked so much. Once again, what the issue with that? Apple lives and prosper with it for quite long. So can do Tesla. In 99% you can use SC, J1772 and you also can buy 14-50 to charge from any 240V outlet and also a CHademo adapter to use "fast" charging besides Tesla. Right now most 3rd party chargers either slow or expensive or both. I'm quite sure if it would be a demand, they will make CCS in USA available like in Europe
Tesla launches $190 CCS adapter for new Model S and Model X, offers retrofits for older vehicles - Electrek
They started making EVs 10+ years ago when there were no standard on charging. Nissan used CHademo others smth else. As an engineer, I quite understand them from engineering prospective (and Apple who start using lightning much before USB-C become widely used) to pick up "proprietary" standard - you can control it and can make it as good as you want, instead of fighting with others, regulating body etc.

Thus, I'd say comparing Tesla with Betamax is quite a stretch (especially with ability from Tesla to make changes AFTER car made, quite not possible to most other makers). WHEN (I think not IF but WHEN) there would be a real request for CCS and Carplay, they will provide it I'm quite sure. From business prospective, with 4-8 weeks backlog to buy they do not see REAL need for that.

Maybe that turn around some buyers, sure, but that seems not a deal breaker for most buyers who consider Tesla (yet).