Why should a Tesla be allowed to roll backward on a hill?

[Yinn]

One more thing to note. In the Model S V9 notes, people have been complaining about the change in how Hold reacts since V9.

Software Update 2018.39.7 9736c9b
Software Update 2018.39.7 9736c9b

 

[DCGOO]

May I suggest that you and the other 3 people you met at the SC read the owners manual. That's what it's there for.

That would be good, except the Owners Manual is blank for V9

 

[SSonnentag]

I have two feet for just such situations.

 

[ABC2D]

We are just accustomed to our other car that we have been driving for a few years that as soon as I come to a stop on an incline, it will never roll backward

Could it have been because that other cars had an ICE always running and automated transmission always pulling car forward? BTW, what was that previous car make and model?

We are just accustomed to our other car that we have been driving for a few years

Well, you get accustomed for the new car, just like you got accustomed not to fill it up with gas anymore

we can't find any user guide description of this process

Page 61 of TFM

It appears to me that you just overcomplicating somehow hill hold activation. I have creep off and dont have to press any harder on the brake pedal to engage hill hold - I just regen brake, then gently press brake pedal until full stop, take my foot of the brake and the car always in hill hold. With creep on more firmer push on the brake pedal is needed for hill hold to be activated but it's nothing complicated as you describe it to be.

"you are holding it wrong" or maybe you're right and your car is broken, let us know once you find out.

 

[flar]

With respect to creep mode and hill hold...(and I do drive in SF a lot)

When I first turned off creep I noticed that the hill hold was significantly easier to activate. For those who say that it activates every time, I can still stop the car without engaging it with creep mode off - it's not hard to do so - but my usual stopping pressure pretty much activates it most of the time. I still look for the "H" from force of habit and every once in a while I find it didn't engage.

With creep on, it's not hard to push hard enough to activate it, but I kind of feel like I'm pushing hard enough to put unnecessary pressure on the brake hydraulics. I suppose they are built to withstand a lot, but with creep off the added pressure to activate the hold feels more like a token motion than a hard push.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of a "no rollback" setting that would prevent rolling against the direction of the drive selector - as an option that a driver can choose or not.

 

[SSedan]

Is it really that tiny a minority of us who have driven a manual transmission car/truck. How overwhelmed would you be if you had to manage all that.

I was surprised by the rolling back on a small hill when I first test drove my car. I realized what happened and why and quickly figured out how to use this several ton machine safely.

Far as the "no rollback", how do you suggest that engage? full brake hold till throttle is applied, or let it roll enough to register it is rolling back, or what? Then should it be only for backwards or should it hold pointed downhill too, or hold only in the direction not selected D/R.

You come up with a "solution" here and you are likely to create other issues that YOU are not considering but the Tesla engineers did and that is why the system is setup the way it is.

 

[SSonnentag]

The first time my car rolled back I thought, "Oh, cool! Now it will look like I'm driving a manual transmission!"

 

[Silicon Desert]

Could it have been because that other cars had an ICE always running and automated transmission always pulling car forward? BTW, what was that previous car make and model?

Page 61 of TFM
View attachment 344721

It appears to me that you just overcomplicating somehow hill hold activation. I have creep off and dont have to press any harder on the brake pedal to engage hill hold - I just regen brake, then gently press brake pedal until full stop, take my foot of the brake and the car always in hill hold. With creep on more firmer push on the brake pedal is needed for hill hold to be activated but it's nothing complicated as you describe it to be.
"you are holding it wrong" or maybe you're right and your car is broken, let us know once you find out.

Ok, I will let you know what they find out. During lunch, a factory friend drove the car out of the gigafactory, and on a slight incline at at a stop sign before the I80 freeway entrance, he said "Oh, this is not holding the way it should." Then confirming my option settings is not the reason. Thus, after all the speculation that maybe I am not doing something right or complicating things, he confirms they will look further at it. And it is indeed not working as you just describe above. At one point it did. Stay tuned.

To answer about the "previous" car; I still have it; a newer model Avalon Hybrid Limited. Actually, the hold feature, they call it "Hillside assist", works similarly to the MX (not the exact same way but close enough). So, no the Avalon doesn't hold the car with the trans pulling it. Like several other cars with similar feature, it is brake hold and man it really holds well on those really steep SF hills.

I'm not trying to re-engineer anything as folks might be thinking. I like the way the Avalon holds, and I like the Tesla BEFORE something changed that sounds like it occurred coincidentally to the last software update, yet probably not related.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Is it really that tiny a minority of us who have driven a manual transmission car/truck. How overwhelmed would you be if you had to manage all that.

Yes, I agree. Not sure if you were referring to me. I guess we really are in a minority of people whom have driven manual transmissions. My first couple of cars were that way and I understand your point. Sometimes it was a challenge and sometimes a bit of fun to see how quickly I could transition from brake to gas and pop that clutch without rolling back. (without using the emergency brake). That Filbert street in San Francisco still gives me nightmares. I guess now a bunch of us are just spoiled with all the great technologies in cars.

 

[SSedan]

The first time my car rolled back I thought, "Oh, cool! Now it will look like I'm driving a manual transmission!"

It crossed my mind that people in adjacent vehicles might think that too.

 

[DCGOO]

Is it really that tiny a minority of us who have driven a manual transmission car/truck. How overwhelmed would you be if you had to manage all that.

Some of us are old enough to know that manual transmissions used to be called “Standard transmissions” because they were. Hill Hold was actually a clutch technique taught in Drivers Ed, back in the day (1960s)

 

[xyeahtony]

To answer your question, what you are experiencing is not an anomaly.

Any car with a manual transmission (basically 80% of cars built before 1999) would have the same problem. Your situation is exactly why the brake -hold- function was designed for. Use it.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Page 61 of TFM
View attachment 344721

It appears to me that you just overcomplicating somehow hill hold activation. I have creep off and dont have to press any harder on the brake pedal to engage hill hold - "you are holding it wrong" or maybe you're right and your car is broken, let us know once you find out.

Ok, I got it back and the hold was not working as it should. More importantly, they fixed an unrelated reason which is why they took the car. Apparently a sensor issue seemingly with the pedal. Now it makes sense because I was sure after driving it for a year that something changed. With creep mode off, just a slight press of the brake puts it in hold mode (as you mention and as I remembered it doing previously). For awhile I was wondering if there was a software change or so other oddball reason. So a few of you folks helped confirm what it should have been doing.

 

[Silicon Desert]

That would be good, except the Owners Manual is blank for V9

May I suggest that you and the other 3 people you met at the SC read the owners manual. That's what it's there for.

I'm coming back to this one because it is a good point you make. Often I see people asking questions about things that are in the user manual. In this case the manual was of no help whatsoever. Thanks MasterT for showing page 61. I had read it earlier last week when I downloaded the latest manual and saw it on page 64. I always check the manual first when something changes.

My minor annoyance with the manual is that people writing it don't use proper descriptions, grammar, and sometimes misleading. They need someone with better English writing skills than me This one is a good example. Example, the manual says "brake as you normally would". It's too ambiguous. It varies a lot between people. Something like "As you press the brake with a slight pressure while fully stopped..." would be less vague.

Further, unless I overlooked it in the manual, there was no description that one needs to press the brake much more firmly to activate vehicle hold when in creep on mode. Actually, creep mode is a bit misleading. There should be a description of the differences between creep on and creep off when pressing the brake. Ideally that would be in the "Brake" section and also refer to creep mode. I see other postings where people are confused that there is a difference.

Ok, so this is just one example. Folks also know there has been confusion in the past about needing a slight torque on the steering wheel to prevent nagging due to misleading terms in the manual and on the dash display. I'll bet you can point out other ambiguous statements as I have also seen in the manual.

Bottom line, I'm hopeful for better writers and reviewers in the future. Overall, I think it is a fairly good manual, yet needs tweaking and several new features aren't mentioned at all. The downside is that by the time they explain all of the details of upcoming full auto-pilot, that manual could be larger than the bible. I guess we can't win on this one. Fortunately, there are a lot of smart people here whom experiment and properly explain what the manual really means As my English teacher used to say, "Communicate not only so you can be understood, but so you also CAN'T BE misunderstood."

 

[ABC2D]

Thanks for the update, glad they figured out the problem, and my apologies for "holding it wrong" comments

 

[Silicon Desert]

Thanks for the update, glad they figured out the problem, and my apologies for "holding it wrong" comments

Appreciated, yet no apology needed. I was actually beginning to think I was doing something like that which I hadn't been doing before. I guess with a ton of sensors on the car, something is going to need alignment or replacement at some point.

 

[Akikiki]

I can't believe this thread.

 

[Silicon Desert]

I can't believe this thread.

I guess. Perhaps you can help us understand what is hard to believe

 

[mattack4000]

Maybe learn how to drive a car with manual transmission, make you a better driver

 

[Az_Rael]

Yes, I agree. Not sure if you were referring to me. I guess we really are in a minority of people whom have driven manual transmissions. My first couple of cars were that way and I understand your point. Sometimes it was a challenge and sometimes a bit of fun to see how quickly I could transition from brake to gas and pop that clutch without rolling back. (without using the emergency brake). That Filbert street in San Francisco still gives me nightmares. I guess now a bunch of us are just spoiled with all the great technologies in cars.

Oh, I remember a intersection near my house that was a steep incline and a right turn without a light onto a busy road. You had to look over your shoulder waiting for your small space and then manage the clutch/gas/don't roll back all without hitting the guy in the automatic too close to your rear. I used to cheat and use the e-brake most of the time.

The funny thing is modern standard transmission cars all have hill hold assists now. So even if you are learning a manual today, you won't have to sweat bullets on a hill anymore.