Will NEM 3 impact NEM 2 and 1?

[Ampster]

waiting with baited breath where PG&E is going to put me. I’m currently on E6 NEM1 tou with a second meter for charging the EV’s (EVB).

That will be an interesting one. I know you will keep us informed.

 

[h2ofun]

I don't think NEM 1.0 gave protection to people on tiered rates. Many people who are on tiered rates do not have a NEM agreement and they can opt out of TOU rates. I don't know if that is considered protection or just a political issue to reduce pushback for the automatic moving of people to TOU rates. Again, I think you are confusing the scope of the NEM tariffs with the scope of the rate tariffs.
The separation of distribution and generation charges was always there in the form of unbundled rates for people in CCAs and an earlier deregulation scheme where a limited number of consumers could buy generation separately. Are you thinking of NBCs (Non Bypassable Charges) which came about in NEM 2.0?

I am not sure which item you are referring to as being grandfathered? NEM 2.0, NEM 1.0 or your earlier statement about tiered rates?

Yes that is the big question about being able to sell back. I agree with @jjrandorin, that there was some form of protection of NEM 1.0. I think there may have been some discussion about that during NEM 2.0 hearings and a compromise was reached to. allow NEM 1.0 customers to remain but I do not remember exactly what it was. I have always assumed the worse case, but hoped for the best case.

I honestly think the big challenge will be to come up with something that does not create load departure for the Investor Owned Utilities. That will be a revenue death spiral for them. On the one hand they are already losing generation revenue from the growth of CCAs. If they hit existing NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0 customers so hard that the existing investment of those customers in solar becomes uneconomical there may be load departure if those customers buy batteries to leverage and protect their existing solar investments. As I have said many times, we are entitled to install generation behind the meter with just a building permit. This does not apply to those that have received SGIP funds and agreed to the terms of those grants.
I chose to do a DIY system and there is nothing that the IOUs can do to prevent others from doing what I have already done with a hybrid inverter and batteries. I did that as a hedge against just the possibility that the iOUs could be so short sighted enough to take away incentives to install solar. The one thing I have no control over is if they are successful in increasing their fixed charges. I am required by the building code to have a connection to the grid. I am not required to use a certain amount of that grid. I am exposed to fixed charges now with MDCs (Minimum Delivery Charges).

totally agree. With all the changes in the world, who knows what the future will be

 

[miimura]

NEM2 also has the 20 year term guarantee.

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf
Sheet 26

8. NEM2 Grandfathering Provisions This Special Condition is applicable to all Customers receiving service on Schedules NEM2, NEM2V, and NEM2VMSH (“the NEM-2 Schedules”) and who have submitted all documentation necessary to receive service on the NEM-2 schedules.

a. 20-Year Transition Period. Pursuant to D.16-01-044, Customers who are receiving service on the NEM-2 schedules, or who have submitted all documentation necessary to receive service on a NEM-2 Schedule, are eligible to continue receiving service on that NEM-2 Schedule for a period of 20 years from the original year in which their Generating Facility was interconnected to PG&E’s grid, indicated by and measured from the date on which the Customer originally received permission to operate (PTO) the Generating Facility from PG&E and ending at the conclusion of the Customer’s applicable Relevant Period that ends immediately on or after the 20th anniversary of the original PTO date. For example, if a Customer initially received PTO on April 1, 2018, the Customer is eligible to continue receiving service on this Schedule through the conclusion of the Relevant Period ending immediately on or after March 31, 2038.​

Customers served on Schedule NEM, NEMV, or NEMVMASH who elect to make a one-time switch to the corresponding NEM-2 Schedule prior to the conclusion of their Schedule NEM, NEMV or NEMVMASH 20-year transition period can continue service under the corresponding NEM-2 Schedule from the date of their original Schedule NEM, NEMV or NEMVMASH PTO date; these Customers may not restart their 20-year transition period by electing to move to this Schedule. Customers electing to switch to the corresponding NEM-2 Schedule prior to the conclusion of their Schedule NEM, NEMV or NEMVMASH 20-year transition period permanently forfeit any of their Generating Facility’s remaining transition period eligibility on Schedule NEM, NEMV or NEMVMASH and may not later change back to receiving service under Schedule NEM, NEMV or NEMVMASH.​

If you elect to change from NEM 1 to NEM 2 before the end of your initial 20 years on NEM 1, you do not get to restart your 20 years. You are only grandfathered for your original 20 years. I did not know this until just now.

 

[miimura]

Here's another interesting tidbit from Sheet 29 that was just revised August 2020:

(9) In the event of an expected PSPS (Public Safety Power Shutoff) outage, as evidenced by a 48-hour notice from PG&E to the expected outage start, a storage system defined as “No Grid Charging” and designed for resiliency, meaning it is capable of providing back-up power safely and in compliance with all relevant tariffs, electric rules, other requirements , and is qualified by PG&E to participate, will be temporarily permitted to charge from the grid in order to prepare for the PSPS outage. The notification must specify an impact to the customer generator location. This temporary permission will begin at the publication of the 48-hour notification and will end 24 hours after the end of the PSPS event, as marked by the restoration of power at the site. If power is not shutoff, the temporary permission will end 72 hours after the original 48-hour notice. At the end of the temporary permission period as described above, the storage system will need to revert to “No Grid Charging” operation mode in order to maintain compliance with the NEM tariff, notwithstanding additional PSPS Alerts. At no point during the temporary permission period will the system be permitted to violate the interconnection agreement. Specifically, the storage system must not increase the host facility’s historical peak demand.

 

[getakey]

Here's another interesting tidbit from Sheet 29 that was just revised August 2020:

Good find!

 

[Ampster]

New NEM2 also has the 20 year term guarantee

Thanks, That is good to know. I reread it to refresh my memory and realize that a subject that is sometimes discussed is also contained in the document. It is often asked how much one can increase their system size and some people try to find it in their PTO or their NEM agreement. The answer is 10% or 1 kW and it is specified in the complete document for PG&E

 

[miimura]

Thanks, That is good to know. I reread it to refresh my memory and realize that a subject that is sometimes discussed is also contained her. It is often asked how much one can increase their system size and some people try to find it in their PTO or their NEM agreement. The answer is 10% or 1 kW and it is specified in the complete document for PG&E

This is the same as NEM 1. You can repair or increase by the greater of 10% or 1.0kW CEC AC rating. This rating is defined as the panel PTC rating times the CEC inverter efficiency rating. The max AC output of the inverter does not matter. I was thinking about repaneling my existing micro-inverter based solar system with a high DC-AC ratio. However, it is not allowed because it would exceed the 1.0kW increase even though the inverters would not be changed.

 

[Ampster]

New Here's another interesting tidbit from Sheet 29 that was just revised August 2020:

That is for people with "Paired Storage" which occurs I presume when one gets a SGIP grant. I have always assumed my DIY hybrid inverter which is behind the meter but which was installed with a building permit does not qualify.

 

[miimura]

That is for people with "Paired Storage" which occurs I presume when one gets a SGIP grant. I have always assumed my DIY hybrid inverter which is behind the meter but which was installed with a building permit does not qualify.

Correct. This applies specifically to Storage Interconnection agreements that specifically limit grid charging. I don't know if this generally applies to Powerwall installations or not. I suspect that the grid charging limitations that we experience with Powerwalls is purely a product of Tesla's firmware decisions, not interconnection agreement limitations.

 

[Ampster]

I was thinking about repaneling my existing micro-inverter based solar system with a high DC-AC ratio. However, it is not allowed because it would exceed the 1.0kW increase even though the inverters would not be changed.

I remember that discussion several years ago because I was thinking of adding capacity through AC coupling my GT system through a hybrid inverter. I was going to add panels to that hybrid inverter to charge batteries and serve loads. I could program that hybrid inverter with an export limit so it would not exceed the approved GT inverter size plus 1 kW. I think that may be a grey area and might jeopardize and NEM arrangement because of the wording in the NEM tariff. It does refer to "Renewable Electric Generating Facility" and may attempt to cover other behind the meter installations. On the other hand, I have seen documents that say, for example that a back up generator behind the meter does not require permission.

 

[Ampster]

I suspect that the grid charging limitations that we experience with Powerwalls is purely a product of Tesla's firmware decisions, not interconnection agreement limitations.

And it does help satisfy the IRS requirement that to take the Investment Tax Credit a battery must be charged by solar a certain number of weeks per year. (or some measure defined by the Code) A battery system without solar has to charge from the grid but is not eligible for the ITC.

 

[WhiteSpeed]

Utilities are monopolies (in most regions). That's not to say they can do anything in their market because they are governed by idiot.. (ahem..) politicians, but they are still monopolies. For all their rhetoric (especially from PG&E), they hate net metering. It forces them to buy your power, and that really does not work out well for them. The grid is not a battery. They don't store energy. They have great difficulty in managing the power they generate and distribute, and power pushed onto the grid by rooftop solar is "bag of hurt", that they are having an increasingly difficult time with. That said, don't count on net metering going forward. In addition, PG&E are forced to build renewable sources of energy. These are unreliable, and expensive. They cannot get rid of the traditional reliable and cheap sources of energy (hydro, nuclear, and petroleum) or you would not have power when the sun goes down, and the wind ain't blowin'. So they have to maintain two infrastructures. They happily pass that on to you and me in increased utility rates. I have rooftop solar, and I have had Powerwalls on order for months. I hope Tesla will get around to installing them. In the mean while, our power delivery grid is aging and struggling. Government is pushing hard for EV's (which I love), but that is loading the grid and exacerbating the situation. Imagine a day when you only have EV's and they are rationing (government's favorite solution), electric power.

 

[jjrandorin]

Here's another interesting tidbit from Sheet 29 that was just revised August 2020:

That quote basically reads like tesla wrote it for them with how Powerwalls operate during a PSPS event, to enable grid charging, for those timeframes etc.

I have had my powerwalls go into powerwatch mode like 9-10 times this year, mostly for wind events or threat of PSPS (that ended up not happening). In each case, they normally start charging from grid between 24-48 hours before the prospective PSPS event.

 

[Ampster]

In addition, PG&E are forced to build renewable sources of energy. These are unreliable, and expensive. They cannot get rid of the traditional reliable and cheap sources of energy (hydro, nuclear, and petroleum) or you would not have power when the sun goes down, and the wind ain't blowin'. So they have to maintain two infrastructures.

The reality in California is the the three Investor Owned Utilities were forced to sell off many of their generating assets during the early days of deregulation. PG&E and SCE held on to some of their hydro and nuclear assets and then built some Peaker Plants after the energy crisis. The IOUs buy most of their power in the open market so most of their assets are the transmission and distribution lines. Most of the renewable generation in California is financed by private industry and more recently some CCAs have built solar farms. These are clearly intermittent but as far as I know when the sun shines and the wind blows they are reliable. I also understand that they are competitive with natural gas generation at approximately $0.05.per kWh,
The state does have Renewable Portfolio Standards that does drive the power purchases by many governmental agencies. The state also has new building standards that mean most new home construction will have solar panels.

 

[getakey]

solar and wind is competitive until you factor in reliability. you have to have duplicate (backup) sources for when sun is not shining and wind not blowing. I'm all for solar and wind, but you cannot ignore the reliability factor

 

[RKCRLR]

NEM2 also has the 20 year term guarantee.

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf
Sheet 26



If you elect to change from NEM 1 to NEM 2 before the end of your initial 20 years on NEM 1, you do not get to restart your 20 years. You are only grandfathered for your original 20 years. I did not know this until just now.

I was required to transition from NEM1 to NEM2 when I increased the size of my solar system.
I'm assuming this is not considered as an "election" and I have 20 years on NEM2 from the day I received PTO for the larger solar system, correct?

 

[RKCRLR]

Here's another interesting tidbit from Sheet 29 that was just revised August 2020:

Interesting. When I asked PG&E about grid charging I was told to contact their SGIP department.

I asked:
"Tesla has told me that I can't charge my Powerwalls from the grid unless there is a storm or PSPS eminent. My question is:
Is it a PG&E requirement that I'm not allowed to charge my Powerwalls from the grid if I have solar generation?"

PG&E's SGIP department response:
"Thanks for reaching out to us. You may charge your battery from the grid.

Sincerely,

Basil Foster

Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP)

Phone: 415-973-6436 or email [email protected]"

 

[h2ofun]

Interesting. When I asked PG&E about grid charging I was told to contact their SGIP department.

I asked:
"Tesla has told me that I can't charge my Powerwalls from the grid unless there is a storm or PSPS eminent. My question is:
Is it a PG&E requirement that I'm not allowed to charge my Powerwalls from the grid if I have solar generation?"

PG&E's SGIP department response:
"Thanks for reaching out to us. You may charge your battery from the grid.

Sincerely,

Basil Foster

Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP)

Phone: 415-973-6436 or email [email protected]"

PGEs answer did not say when. You could read it as Teslas answer to anytime. Bottom line from what I have been reading, other than maybe one exception, no one has gotten tesla to program the PW's to charge from grid at any time with solar, or am I missing things?

 

[jjrandorin]

PGEs answer did not say when. You could read it as Teslas answer to anytime. Bottom line from what I have been reading, other than maybe one exception, no one has gotten tesla to program the PW's to charge from grid at any time with solar, or am I missing things?

One time is all we know of here on tmc, in the US. That doesnt mean its the only time it happened, but there is only one person here that got that, with a specific letter from their utility, which was not a california based one.

 

[h2ofun]

One time is all we know of here on tmc, in the US. That doesnt mean its the only time it happened, but there is only one person here that got that, with a specific letter from their utility, which was not a california based one.

That is why no matter how many folks ask, for calif. at least, it seems the end result is no. I know this concerns me with it looks like having to use the batteries to meet the SGIP requirement, but in the winter, not having enough solar to come close to recharging if I try to use during the peak high priced times.

So for folks who have gas for heating, its a non issue. But for folks like me, who have heat pumps, its a big deal.