Will the Mod3 PXXD be quicker than the S?

[JeffK]

We still know very little about the Model 3 battery. I'd assume if there's going to be a ludicrous version then we will see a higher voltage battery keeping in mind if there's less mass to move you don't need as many watts to move it with the same acceleration as the Model S.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I know this is a testosterone thing but I, for one, can't tell the difference between 2.9 seconds and 3.4 seconds or even 5.2 seconds. They are all slam you in the seat, rocket you into traffic, and scare the *sugar* out of your wife fast. That's more than enough for me. I know it is important to some but the Ludicrous Mode concept seems to be an incredibly expensive .3 seconds. Hell, if I am going to spend $10,000 it better last longer than 3 tenths of a second. Nobody is THAT good.

Dan

 

[ucmndd]

We still know very little about the Model 3 battery. I'd assume if there's going to be a ludicrous version then we will see a higher voltage battery

While that's true we know enough about battery technology to be reasonably certain that any changes in cell capacity, size, voltage, etc. are going to be incremental, not revolutionary.

 

[JeffK]

Luckily we don't need revolutionary for this application!

 

[Red Sage]

There's no way Tesla will make the Model 3 faster than either the S or the X, for all the obvious sales/marketing reasons.

So, by that logic... There's 'no way' that there would be...

• a BMW M3 quicker than a 7-Series...
• an AUDI S4 quicker than an A8 L...
• a Lexus IS F Sport quicker than an LS...
• an Infiniti Q50 RED Sport quicker than a Q70...
• a Cadillac ATS-V quicker than XTS...

Right?

 

[MuppetOwl]

Not directly comparable One of the "side effects" of large electric vehicles is larger more powerful batteries. And therefor also much more available power.

Model S is much faster than the Roadster

If you compare Model S 85/90D to a 70D that is almost the same car and the 70D is lighter, Only the difference from a 70 to 85/90 battery makes the car go much faster. Thanks to higher voltage because of more cells.

So if the Model 3 should be faster than the Model S it will need a large high voltage battery like the at least 85-90 and 400V as the Model S. But the small drive units are also not able to make it faster than the Model S. So a faster Model 3 will need a large Drive unit in the back like the PD models.

We still don't know very much of the Model 3, but i am 90% sure the Model 3 will not be faster than the 2017 Model S P100D

 

[brianman]

Also weight does not have so much to say on acceleration as we can see on the small difference on the heavier Model X and Model S.

We're only talking about a 10% weight difference between the Model X and the Model S:
S - P85D 4936 lbs
X - P90D 5381 lbs

If I was to guess today with no special information, I'd guess the Model 3 will be around 3500 lbs.

 

[brianman]

As for cannibalising S sales, it's already happening. Roughly 20,000 S's vs roughly 400,000 3's is no contest.

Your first sentence and your second are completely unrelated, IMO. Lots of the people that lined up for 3 would never consider an S.

Also, in the CC yesterday Tesla formally indicated the opposite is happening -- Model 3 is drawing interest that is effectively increasing Model S sales.

 

[brianman]

Personally, I hope that Tesla fixes the 3 at 3.0 seconds for Ludicrous. Otherwise the S owners will explode.

First, I'll go on record saying that even though there are some people I really dislike (see: NADA) I don't wish explosion on anyone.

Second, your usage of "exploded" in your second sentence is unclear. Speaking as a serial Model S performance owner -- I look forward to seeing a Model 3 that will make the current P*D Model S feel 'slow' in the acceleration game.

 

[brianman]

...but have we forgotten the forthcoming "Maximum Plaid" speed? *That* could be exclusive to S/X owners!

When first described, it was associated with next gen Roadster not S, X, or 3. And no, "we" have not forgotten.

 

[brianman]

It's been pointed out several times, but the BMW M3 is faster than the M5/6. It makes little sense for Tesla to hobble the 3, just so their much larger premium sedan can maintain its faster times.

The performance version of the 3 is going to have healthy margins, and the Model S will continue to sell well despite the 3 being faster.

Agreed. "Protecting the sibling" but losing to the competition is not the direction Tesla should follow.

 

[brianman]

I have read nothing that indicates that if a higher capacity battery is delivering the same 1500 amps as a lower capacity battery that the higher capacity battery would somehow be faster.

In fact the opposite is probably true -- less weight for the battery pack gives acceleration advantage to the smaller pack.

 

[brianman]

i am 90% sure the Model 3 will not be faster than the 2017 Model S P100D

"I am 90% sure <something that doesn't exist yet> will not be faster than <something else that doesn't exist yet>."

I think Vegas would love to have gamblers with your confidence visiting often.

 

[MuppetOwl]

"I am 90% sure <something that doesn't exist yet> will not be faster than <something else that doesn't exist yet>."

I think Vegas would love to have gamblers with your confidence visiting often.

Yeah glad I live in Norway and don't visit Vegas often

 

[brianman]

I know this is a testosterone thing but I, for one, can't tell the difference between 2.9 seconds and 3.4 seconds or even 5.2 seconds. They are all slam you in the seat, rocket you into traffic, and scare the *sugar* out of your wife fast. That's more than enough for me. I know it is important to some but the Ludicrous Mode concept seems to be an incredibly expensive .3 seconds. Hell, if I am going to spend $10,000 it better last longer than 3 tenths of a second. Nobody is THAT good.

It's actually to remove 0.3s not to change the experience for 0.3s. That aside...

My hope for Ludicrous upgrade was that we'd get (a) noticeably improved 30-70mph power and (b) significant improvement in the track experience w/r/t the power limiter. So far I've felt both improvements in my vehicle.

 

[Red Sage]

Wow. It always astounds me how many members of the League of Lowered Expectations hang around here.

One of the great things about electric cars is that you do not have to subscribe to the compromises and limitations put in place by traditional automobile manufacturers. There is not as much of a tradeoff between Efficiency and Performance with an electric drivetrain as there is with ICE. Going down to 88 MPGe instead of 100 MPGe for the sake of Performance is nowhere near as bad as going from 40 MPG down to 3 MPG.

I expect that each version of Model ☰ will weigh around 1,000 lbs less than its Model S counterpart. So, a rear wheel drive minimum capacity battery pack car may be as little as 3,400 lbs... And the all wheel drive maximum capacity battery pack version could be no more than 3,900 lbs. On the high end, I expect that range to be 3,700 lbs to 4,100 lbs instead.

Insane mode for Model S was 3.2 seconds 0-60 MPH. Blisteringly fast for a 3,925 lbs vehicle that could carry as many as seven passengers. Not at all what the world is used to seeing in a full-sized sedan. I would not expect worse Performance from Insane settings in the Model ☰.

Ludicrous mode for Model S knocked as much as a half second off the Insane level of acceleration. So, if it turns out that Insane for a Model ☰ is 3.0 seconds flat to 60 MPH, it is not out of the realm of possibility that you would see a 2.5 timing for Ludicrous. Especially if a 90 kWh or higher capacity battery pack is available for it.

Maximum Plaid is reserved for the next version of the Tesla Roadster. I would not be surprised if it is called Model R. That setting will never be available for Model S, Model X, or Model ☰.

The Model S will be too busy cannibalizing sales of Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 7-Series, AUDI A8 L, and Porsche Panamera to worry about Model ☰ sales. The C-Class outsells S-Class, while 3-Series outsells 7-Series, and A4 outsells the A8 L. That is the way it should be, and happens by design. If a vehicle that has an average selling price over $90,000 is outselling one that has a base price under $40,000 there is something wrong.

Tesla Motors doesn't build slow cars.

 

[Colsla]

We're only talking about a 10% weight difference between the Model X and the Model S:
S - P85D 4936 lbs
X - P90D 5381 lbs

If I was to guess today with no special information, I'd guess the Model 3 will be around 3500 lbs.

I agree. All steel body leaf with 30kwh battery is around 3300 lbs. While bigger battery size and bigger capacity will add more weight there will be aluminum parts strategically placed for safety of the car which will save some weight. I would guess it will be around 3700 lbs but can't imagine the base model model 3 being heavier than 4k lbs

 

[Colsla]

Then how do you explain the 20% faster 0-60 times for a Model S90D over a Model S70D? Or the slower 0-60 times for a 55kWh Model 3 (5.9 seconds (or less)) v. 5.2 seconds for a heavier Model S 70D.

Yes but base model 3 will be rwd and 70d is dual motor. I believe rwd 70is a bit slower (0.4 sec? It's 5.8 sec for 0-100kph)

I'm on mobile so I'll have to confirm this but on Canadian site it says 0-100 kph under 6 sec. This is important since 0-100 kph takes about 0. 2secs longer than 0-60 mph. Unless Tesla made a mistake of forgetting to convert the unit while remembering to convert the range from 215 m to 345 km on the range on the website , this means that 0-60 mph will be at least 5.7 sec (5.9 sec 0-100 kph)

 

[Zoomit]

I agree. All steel body leaf with 30kwh battery is around 3300 lbs. While bigger battery size and bigger capacity will add more weight there will be aluminum parts strategically placed for safety of the car which will save some weight. I would guess it will be around 3700 lbs but can't imagine the base model model 3 being heavier than 4k lbs

The Bolt EV is 3,580 lbs and is the closest surrogate. It's body is steel but the doors, hood, liftgate, two front crossmembers, and front-suspension control arms are aluminum. Car and Driver

But it's also smaller than the Model 3, as best as I can tell, so it seems like the base Model 3 will be at least 3,600 lbs.

 

[Colsla]

Yes but base model 3 will be rwd and 70d is dual motor. I believe rwd 70is a bit slower (0.4 sec? It's 5.8 sec for 0-100kph)

I'm on mobile so I'll have to confirm this but on Canadian site it says 0-100 kph under 6 sec. This is important since 0-100 kph takes about 0. 2secs longer than 0-60 mph. Unless Tesla made a mistake of forgetting to convert the unit while remembering to convert the range from 215 m to 345 km on the range on the website , this means that 0-60 mph will be at least 5.7 sec (5.9 sec 0-100 kph)

70
0 to 60 mph in 5.5
0 to 100 kph in 5.8

70D

0 to 60 mph in 5.2
0 to 100 kph in 5.4

In Canadian website it does say 'Zero to 100 km/h under 6 seconds'

Again, I am not sure if Tesla made a mistake in converting units, but it clearly says 0 to 100 kph under 6 seconds. Now I am not sure what exact number Tesla used to get 0.3 sec difference in converting 70 but 0.2 in 70D, but it seems safe to assume that 0 to 60 mph will be at least 5.7 seconds as it stands.

Now, its an easy math anyone can do, but from 70 to P90DL is 2.7 sec quicker. If Model 3 base model is actually 5.7 sec, PxxDL will be 3.0 seconds. Of course there are soooo many unknown factors that need to be accounted for, but 3.0 sec 0 to 60 seems to be plenty quick to satisfy those who are concerned about the acceleration without affecting the sales of Model S due to quicker acceleration offered by model 3.

But, like someone mentioned in a post above, this is comparison with CURRENT model S, not what it will be in about a year's time. So will Model 3 be quicker than CURRENT model S? it is probable. Will it be quicker than the Model S in mid to late 2017 if not later? I am doubtful, even with better efficiency and better technology that will go in Model 3, it will still be first gen Model 3 with plenty of room for improvement.