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Of course, the person that created the thread could have misunderstood the rep or is deliberately providing false information. Or the Tesla rep could have been mistaken. But to be honest, I was hoping for folding 2nd row seats, but I felt that the odds were 50/50 at best. So, I'm not surprised if they don't fold flat. :frown:
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I've seen a couple of solutions having to do with rotation and spooning, neither of which involve 'folding' to be flat. The rep might only have known they don't fold & not know anything else.
It is just inconceivable to me that the 2nd row wouldn't fold flat. Every car I have ever owned had the 2nd row fold flat. It is basic to the hauling function of the car. Total deal breaker for me if that whole space isn't available for cargo. (I don't care if it's actually folding or some other mechanism, but it has to produce a flat area the size of the space and it has to be easy to work.)
I think once again we'll have to wait and see. And it's certainly possible, as has been mentioned, that there will be a different 2nd row offering for non-Sigs that are more basic but provide some kind of flat capabilities - assuming the existing seats don't.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Let me try again ... the Tesla rep may have been technically correct with 'don't fold flat'. That statement doesn't preclude 'will rotate flat'. You could still have full cargo space in the back, without those seats folding.
O-G
Member
Have you been given any indication or reassurance that you will be able to see the MX before committing? You are close, I'm in Washington but I would still fly down to look. It's hard to imagine spending that kind of money sight unseen.
Great graphics and summary.
I think you're pretty close. Options 3 and 5 are physically impossible given the pedestal design shown, hence I'd rate their likelihood a 0.
Plus the 3rd row folds aft not forward.
Oh how we do love a mystery, especially when the apparent solution breaks our expectations!
Mark Z
Active Member
Let me add one more crazy possibility and please tell me if this has been suggested, if so, I hadn't read that post. I have looked at my photos taken at the Battery Swap Event and a good flash photo of the storage space behind the rear seat of a later prototype Model X shows a pull tab at the bottom. The markings on the carpet could be from something else, but it appears that the tab could be pulled toward the back of the vehicle storing the seat bottom into the rear storage area. That would clear space for the 2nd row to be moved forward and tilt completely back. The problem would be the entire 2nd row seat surface would be exposed. Just having fun adding one more suggestion to the mix to help update all the drawings that have been created. Of course, the storage of the rear seat into the storage area could also give extra room for the other suggestions. Have fun enjoying the photos. Tesla Battery Swap Event | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Edit: I did find the storage in the trunk mentioned by Blurry_Eyed here: Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 2
Edit 2: After looking at more photos, I will predict that at the very least, the rear seat bottom appears it can be moved towards the rear with the seat back down. The tab would be to pull the entire 3rd seat towards the rear after the lowering of the back releases the seat bottom latches to allow the pulling action. The rear storage depression might be left alone and the markings on the carpet may confirm that. (I hope the well is left alone, I store my charge adapters in that space with Model S.)
Edit: I did find the storage in the trunk mentioned by Blurry_Eyed here: Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 2
Edit 2: After looking at more photos, I will predict that at the very least, the rear seat bottom appears it can be moved towards the rear with the seat back down. The tab would be to pull the entire 3rd seat towards the rear after the lowering of the back releases the seat bottom latches to allow the pulling action. The rear storage depression might be left alone and the markings on the carpet may confirm that. (I hope the well is left alone, I store my charge adapters in that space with Model S.)
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GasDoc
Member
Here are paper doll representations of my theory. I have zero graphic arts skills.
1) second row rotates 90 degrees counterclockwise and drops to floor level
2) Third row folds forward, leather surfaces rest on second row leather seatback.
3) Floor of cabin is comprised of underside and back of third row seating.
I think the raised surface behind the third row seats doesn't have to exist. The majority of the cabin space can be flat in this configuration.
Roow110, did you create the illustration in post #99. Can you add my theory?
1) second row rotates 90 degrees counterclockwise and drops to floor level
2) Third row folds forward, leather surfaces rest on second row leather seatback.
3) Floor of cabin is comprised of underside and back of third row seating.
I think the raised surface behind the third row seats doesn't have to exist. The majority of the cabin space can be flat in this configuration.
Roow110, did you create the illustration in post #99. Can you add my theory?
Vote for best infographic of the day. I agree the first is the most likely option, and this is just for the sigs. It lists these seats in the signature series area of the options page, not in the standard equipment section. Poor man's X will have the normal, folding flat seats seen at the original announcement, IMHO.
I hate to shut down a theory, but we have to be realistic here. The 3rd row folds back into the trunk.
No decent auto engineer would require loosing the 2nd row functionality to be able to lower the 3rd row. From my experience with big cars (kids, minivans, etc) you must be able to maintain the 2nd row and hide the 3rd row. Honda did it about 15 years ago, IIRC.
PLUS, the horrific mechanism required to make that 3rd row move like that would need to be where the motor is located. (nonstarter)
PLUS^2, the lower portion of the seat would block the front seats from reclining, if they even fit, which they don't
PLUS^3, the latest unofficial news says "the second row seats don't fold flat."
P.S. I really like the cutouts. Reminds me of a math test I took as a kid. I needed to calculate the centroid of some weird-shaped polygon. I tore out the picture of it from test and balanced it on my pencil.
No decent auto engineer would require loosing the 2nd row functionality to be able to lower the 3rd row. From my experience with big cars (kids, minivans, etc) you must be able to maintain the 2nd row and hide the 3rd row. Honda did it about 15 years ago, IIRC.
PLUS, the horrific mechanism required to make that 3rd row move like that would need to be where the motor is located. (nonstarter)
PLUS^2, the lower portion of the seat would block the front seats from reclining, if they even fit, which they don't
PLUS^3, the latest unofficial news says "the second row seats don't fold flat."
P.S. I really like the cutouts. Reminds me of a math test I took as a kid. I needed to calculate the centroid of some weird-shaped polygon. I tore out the picture of it from test and balanced it on my pencil.
GasDoc
Member
Good point about having to fold down the second row to fold the third row being a poor design choice.
I'm not suggesting any mechanism for the third row beyond a hinge below the front aspect of the seat. So no conflict with the motor.
I remember renting a car where the passenger seating surface folded forward and abutted the front seats. It did limit the recline angle but not excessively.
Mark Z
Active Member
After my edit I saw your post. Scroll back up to the rear seat photo from the Battery Swap Event to verify your theory. Also, the Design Studio photos show that the rear seat has a flat side edge on the bottom. Looks like the entire bottom of the 3rd seat can slide back.
I agree Bonnie, and I'm waiting to get the complete details before making a decision. But here are a few more points to consider:
- The top-down, heated seats view clearly shows different 2nd row seats that do appear to fold (at least they have a seam)
- The interior view of the Design Studio is a computer rendering, so it may not be 100% accurate
- As you mentioned, they may not fold, but rotate
Here's hoping! I really want these seats and I'll have to make a tough decision if they don't rotate flat. Time will tell.
I would wait to make a decision as well, but I would counter some of your points:
-The top-down heated seats view actually shows the same seats (the apparent seam is just the middle panel in the seat) and if you look close at the edges it is the same seat that does not fold.
-At this stage in the release, I would expect the Design Studio renderings are 98% accurate and they wouldn't expect major changes
-I see no feasible way that those seats could rotate with that configuration and mechanism.
I still believe that this is purely the seat design for the signature series and I would expect a folding seat much closer to what you saw in the prototypes when the vehicle has a wide release. I find it extremely curious that they struggles so much with the design and manufacture of the middle seats (over say the falcon wing doors) so much so that they claim it delayed the release when there appears nothing overly fantastic about them--it may be that the seats for the wide release are entirely different--they just did not implement them in this series as they could not further push back the "launch" without getting bad press.
Seems like it's time for some real 3rd row speculation. The mechanism shown in the Battery Swap Event photos allows the lower seat to translate aft and sandwich below the backrest. The back of the backrest then becomes the cargo loading floor. Note how those headrests were flush to the top of the seat back. That allowed them to remain attached and fold away without concern.
The 3rd row in latest rendering does not have flush headrests; they pultrude higher then the backrest. They also look like they're adjustable or removable. Since Tesla seems to strongly avoid adjustable headrests, I'll make the short leap that they have be removed, or rotate, to allow the backrest to fold flat.
Here's my guess. The seats fold very similar to some minivans like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H14mmq7UExA&feature=youtu.be&t=26. One difference is that both seats will fold at the same time, so no 60/40 split like that minivan video. It's clear in the interior picture that each seat back angle can change, but they share a common hinge point in the middle, so they'll fold flat as a single unit. Whether they'll be manual (pneumatic strut assisted) or automatic I can't say. But I'd hope automatic at this price level. The headrest will either have to be manually removed and stored somewhere or automatically hinged to allow the backrest to lay down. One sort of crazy idea it that the headrests have a mechanism that rotates them 90deg back and they end up pointing straight down into a cavity just in front of the back bumper (see this cavity in this picture http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92638&d=1441121618). So the bottom surface of the lower seat flips 180 deg and the becomes the cargo loading floor. That floor is the same height as the rear motor bench.
The hatch opening will be just about at that same level so large cargo can slide directly into the cargo area. It will be relatively high off the ground however. (Minivan's are excellent in this regard, like in that video where the cargo floor is knee height. SUV's have higher suspension and a rear differential that make the loading floor much higher, closer to waist height.) Since the car will have "Smart Air Suspension", the Model X will have a kneeling feature that lowers the whole car when you want to load cargo. One advantage of the X over the S is the ability to get in and out of the car easier. You don't need to lower your self into the X seats like you do with any sedan. However, this is usually a disadvantage when loading cargo. There will likely be a switch panel accessible when standing behind the vehicle that does two things: 1) raise and lower the 3rd row seats and 2) raise and lower the whole vehicle using the air suspension.
The 3rd row in latest rendering does not have flush headrests; they pultrude higher then the backrest. They also look like they're adjustable or removable. Since Tesla seems to strongly avoid adjustable headrests, I'll make the short leap that they have be removed, or rotate, to allow the backrest to fold flat.
Here's my guess. The seats fold very similar to some minivans like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H14mmq7UExA&feature=youtu.be&t=26. One difference is that both seats will fold at the same time, so no 60/40 split like that minivan video. It's clear in the interior picture that each seat back angle can change, but they share a common hinge point in the middle, so they'll fold flat as a single unit. Whether they'll be manual (pneumatic strut assisted) or automatic I can't say. But I'd hope automatic at this price level. The headrest will either have to be manually removed and stored somewhere or automatically hinged to allow the backrest to lay down. One sort of crazy idea it that the headrests have a mechanism that rotates them 90deg back and they end up pointing straight down into a cavity just in front of the back bumper (see this cavity in this picture http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92638&d=1441121618). So the bottom surface of the lower seat flips 180 deg and the becomes the cargo loading floor. That floor is the same height as the rear motor bench.
The hatch opening will be just about at that same level so large cargo can slide directly into the cargo area. It will be relatively high off the ground however. (Minivan's are excellent in this regard, like in that video where the cargo floor is knee height. SUV's have higher suspension and a rear differential that make the loading floor much higher, closer to waist height.) Since the car will have "Smart Air Suspension", the Model X will have a kneeling feature that lowers the whole car when you want to load cargo. One advantage of the X over the S is the ability to get in and out of the car easier. You don't need to lower your self into the X seats like you do with any sedan. However, this is usually a disadvantage when loading cargo. There will likely be a switch panel accessible when standing behind the vehicle that does two things: 1) raise and lower the 3rd row seats and 2) raise and lower the whole vehicle using the air suspension.
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I have been saying that I think they fold aft and flush. I don't see why they wouldn't.
As far as automatic folding, I wouldn't get my hopes up. I give that a near zero chance.
The "kneeling" idea is interesting but given that I have air suspension in my MS, I can say that the difference between "very low" and "normal" is such that it's not going to make a huge difference. The clearance on the X isn't that much more than the MS, so I just don't see this being as handy as it may seem.
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