TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Will the vehicles of the future be powered by electricity or hydrogen?

Discussion in 'Canada' started by wayner, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,700
    Location:
    Toronto
    • Informative x 1
  2. Phillip L

    Phillip L Gas Passer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2015
    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada
    This is laughable analysis. They basically assume there will be no improvement in battery technologies in the future, discount the huge cost of building hydrogen fueling stations, and discount the fact that hydrogen is usually made from natural gas and that the electric grid is already everywhere, that hydrogen is inherently more dangerous, etc etc
     
    • Like x 5
  3. Sisko - DS9

    Sisko - DS9 Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    Ontario


    I have become very disillusioned with the traditional main-stream automotive journalists. They all appear to be following the same formula; half-truths, misdirection, leaving out key aspects, not providing the contrary to the "fact" they are using regarding anything against EV's. I cannot understand to date why the automotive journalists have a "hate-on" for BEV's. I mean it is just another way to power a car. is electric perfect? No. Nothing is. Not even Hydrogen. Every method has its drawbacks, so do BEV's. But society has come to accept the flaws of gasoline and it is up to the automotive journalist to present people with facts and let everyone decide for themselves where they want to put their hard-earned dollars. There are a great many positives to electric propulsion; so what is wrong with that? gasoline has a couple of pluses; the most important one is time it takes to "refill" the vehicles energy reserve for propulsion. But again, they are not honest to state that there exists battery chargers that can recharge a battery from empty in 15 minutes (anything pushing and being accepted at 400KW charger will do that). when the tech and regulations adopt these 400/450Kw chargers it is pretty much just as convenient as a gasoline vehicle. the other benefit of gasoline, is that there are so many gas stations. But again, the journalists does not says outright that this has been a function of time. The oil/gas industry has had 80 years to get there - if not longer.

    let's see after 80 years how many EV chargers there will be at 400/450KW chargers there will be - if not higher rate by then. Problem is they keep talking about gasoline and hydrogen like they just started 10 years ago and look how far they have come. Nothing is further than the truth; gasoline has bee around for over 100 years - in automobiles) and hydrogen hit the industry as the way to go back in 1989 (Ballard in B.C), but Ballard started their first testing on lithium batteries in 1979 (see below: from Ballard's website, under their history
    Our History - Power to Change the World | Ballard Power).


    1979

    • Ballard Research Inc. is founded by Geoffrey Ballard, Keith Prater and Paul Howard to conduct research and development of high-energy lithium batteries.

    This, clearly biased mentality for gasoline. Why? I would really like to know what is the utopic aspect of hydrogen that they are all so in love with, but cannot articulate. I sometimes think that many have been "pushed" into not supporting EV and battery in print, or media that they push gasoline and now hydrogen is another tech that they have permission to push now they are hanging onto hydrogen like a tick to a deer because they know oil is destroying us and the environment.

    My two cents, in my opinion..
     
    • Like x 5
    • Informative x 1
  4. sakimano

    sakimano Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    They know where their bread is buttered.

    Another example...housing market in Toronto is down about 20% in 12 months in Toronto and about 25-30% in many areas in 905. I'm talking PRICES ...yes the average Toronto house is down about 20%. This is not being widely reported. All you hear is that the number of transactions is way down. Who cares about that? Real estate agents and governments relying on land transfer tax. We only care about price but it's barely being reported.

    Why is this? Because if you tell everyone that housing prices are cratering they won't buy houses. That hurts real estate agents and the developers.

    Who are the biggest advertisers in newspapers ? Real estate agents and new home developers

    The papers are catering to their client.

    Their second biggest advertisers? The automotive industry. Dealers, manufacturers etc. We shouldn't be surprised.
     
    • Informative x 1
  5. Asymmetry

    Asymmetry Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    Australia, Sydney
    Hydrogen is stupid.

    Part of my work is using Hydrogen gas. Its a PITA to make sure all pipework and fittings dont leak. Since it is the smallest atom, it will leak where other compresses gases wont.

    Why the hell would anyone use a Hydrogen powered ICE over a EV, its idiotic.
     
    • Like x 8
  6. HugoBoss

    HugoBoss Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Kleinburgh
    I wouldn't buy a hydrogen powered car. I don't want any car where I have to go somewhere to fill up. I think in a few years we would be in the same scenario as with gas industry.
    Price of gas goes up for no reason overnight. Especially when there is a long weekend just around the corner.

    The industry wants a system where we are forced to go fill up so they can continue their scam. No thanks, I'll stick to electric from now on.
     
    • Like x 3
  7. DMC-Orangeville

    DMC-Orangeville 85D and John Deere 5100E

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    733
    Location:
    NW of the 6ix Canada

    I sell hazardous location electrical apparatus. Hydrogen is the second most volatile gas (after acetylene), and very expensive to handle.

    Hydrogen cars would be very good for my business - but not for everyone using the cars. The gas is dangerous. I can't imagine the first collision between 2 hydrogen cars. The equipment to produce the gas will be big bulky and expensive. Staggering capital expenditures to manufacture and distribute the hydrogen. Storage is a big issue.

    Or

    Just plug in your electric vehicle to the existing grid......
     
    • Like x 5
  8. Eco Capitalist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Barrie, ON
    Electric cars are creating a decentralized fueling model. Hydrogen would require stations, thus preserving the power the oil companies derive from the existing model. If change results in a loss of power/profit for a vested interest, you know they will fight it tooth and nail. Look at history; the US government split up AT&T and Standard Oil, yet here we are approaching monopoly status again. The pieces all glop back together like bits of the T1000 from Terminator. Where am I going with this? :)
     
    • Like x 1
  9. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,700
    Location:
    Toronto
    One theory for why the incumbent auto makers are fighting the adoption of EVs is that their core competence is in manufacturing an ICE and if cars don't have ICEs then they will go bust. Same thing with the auto journalists - much or all of their knowledge could become obsolete.
     
  10. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,210
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    Follow the money.

    Journalists post articles that are predominately pre-written as press releases by parties who want something published.

    Hydrogen is being used as a way to show a possible future that is superior but not yet ready, that narrative would intend to suppress EV adoption, as presumably EV'S are not the long term solution, so don't adopt an intermediate solution.

    Yea, this is laughably false premise, and the more EV's on the road, the more clear our future becomes.

    Long live the "filling station" in my garage!
     
    • Like x 3
  11. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,700
    Location:
    Toronto
    That's not what the National Bank-Teranet House Price Index shows in its report as of March 2018:
    Code:
    Metropolitan area    Index Level % change m/m    % change y/y    From peak    Peak date
    Composite 11        218.96    0.03    6.61    -1.84    Aug 2017
    Calgary             180.17    -0.44    0.42    -4.34    Oct 2014
    Edmonton            176.41    -1.33    0.24    -6.12    Sep 2007
    Vancouver           287.39    0.55    15.43    0.00    Mar 2018
    Victoria            201.07    1.02    12.47    0.00    Mar 2018
    Winnipeg            205.85    0.53    2.93    -1.60    Dec 2017
    Halifax             145.79    -1.02    6.08    -1.24    Dec 2017
    Hamilton           223.42    -0.29    5.88    -5.93    Aug 2017
    Ottawa-Gatineau    149.76    -0.72    3.00    -2.35    Sep 2017
    Toronto            236.22    0.00    4.31    -7.34    Jul 2017
    Montréal           167.15    -0.17    4.27    -0.47    Jan 2018
    Québec City        176.54    0.12    -0.37    -3.84    Nov 2017
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. sakimano

    sakimano Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2017
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    #12 sakimano, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    Screenshot_20180416-223356_WhatsApp.jpg I said houses when clarifying.

    Go read the treb net data. Better source. I have no idea what that index you posted includes. How about actual solds data with prices you can relate to?

    http://www.trebhome.com/market_news/market_watch/2018/mw1803.pdf

    http://www.trebhome.com/market_news/market_watch/2017/mw1703.pdf

    Detached homes down -17% to March from last March or pushing $200,000. It was -20% earlier. 905 is similar. Treb shares only avg data which is skewed. Median data is a bit better. We can see that for some of the 905 boards and numbers there are quite a bit worse.

    Condos arent as bad yet. They're the cheaper area of the market so that makes sense. This is how the housing market typically corrects. Along with the denial which is also typical :) .

    Screenshot_20180416-221338_Drive.jpg Screenshot_20180416-221433_Drive.jpg

    Here's another good one...
     
    • Informative x 1
  13. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    813
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    The article is factually incorrect. Also the prof is an accomplished hydrogen fuel cell researcher so their is some bias there. Article incorrectly states:

    "Compare that with fast-charging stations that can charge a battery to 80 per cent in 30 minutes – each station only handles one car at a time. What if you get there and it’s busy – or broken? And right now, there are only 139 of them in Canada."

    Tesla alone has 48 L3 stations with up to 20 chargers at many of them for a total of 507 charging spaces. Quebec has 70 L3 CCS/ChaDemo locations. His stats are way behind or he doesn't see Tesla as a viable long term company, like many in the hydrogen fuel cell arena.

    Anybody find up to date data on numbers of stations and charge points in Canada?
     
    • Informative x 1
  14. rypalmer

    rypalmer Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,288
    Location:
    Canada
    Ever search for parking in downtown Toronto? Many parkades prohibit LPG vehicles from parking underground. If hydrogen is as volitile as they say, perhaps this will be the case for them as well. Who would want to own that car...
     
  15. doubeld

    doubeld Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    Can someone say "Hindenburg"? Sure, that's the kneejerk reaction that H2 people I'm sure just love to see, but think of all the safety systems and new technology are likely in place. Now think of all the safety systems and new technology in place in a Lithium-Ion battery pack in a Tesla or any other EV for that matter. It took how many tens of thousands of cars produced to produce some spectacular crashes? I can recall a handful of crashes that were news-worthy and quite serious and could have been fatal depending on the circumstance. That percentage will only go down. H2 on the other hand...

    I'm not saying that every fender bender will cause a Hiroshima-like explosion, but think of critical mass of vehicles that will eventually be in some sort of high-speed edge-case catastrophic collision. The first time a SINGLE H2 tank blows up in a car, it will be all over the news and that will be the PERMANENT death of H2 passenger vehicles. Lithium-Ion faced/faces similar hurdles with FUD of battery fires (very few justifiably so), but fortunately the mass market knows all about Lithium-Ion batteries and carries them in their pockets daily.
     
  16. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    859
    Location:
    Markham, Canada


    Model 3 will never support ChaDemo which is a shame. For that reason, I will adopt
    hydrogen
     
    • Funny x 2
  17. Vawlkus

    Vawlkus Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Halifax
    I, for one, will not drive a hydrogen bomb around.

    Hydrogen has been 10 years off for the last 40 years, so it’s one of those pie in sky daydreams that isn’t practical, and likely never will be.

    Fueling stations are on the chopping block, people are gonna have to accept that, or become extinct like the dinosaurs that became the fuel they delivered.
     
  18. spottyq

    spottyq Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Belgium
    LPG car are forbidden in underground garages because LPG is heavier than air. In case of a tank leak (even a small one), all the gas would collect in the garage, having nowhere to go and just waiting for a spark to go boom.

    That's not the case for H2. As it immediately reacts with air, if you have a leak (even a small one) you'll notice it before you get in the garage. :p
     
  19. rypalmer

    rypalmer Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,288
    Location:
    Canada
    Huh?? Says who?
     
  20. voyager

    voyager Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    880
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Netherlands
    #20 voyager, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    In the Netherlands there are serious plans to make the natural gas pipeline infrastructure for heating households and businesses suitable for transporting hydrogen. That would mean that fossil fuel (gasoline, diesel and natural gas) stations may be converted to supply hydrogen too. With the many-many plans to use more wind and solar energy in Western Europe, the quest is for suitable storage of surplus electricity. Using surplus electric energy to produce hydrogen is one method. And there is talk of Gazprom supplying hydrogen by splitting this from natural gas at the source.

    Btw, I was amazed to see that many hydrogen filling stations already in California.
    Stations Map | California Fuel Cell Partnership
     
    • Informative x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC