Winter handling Subaru vs dual-motor model Y

[mswlogo]

I know exactly what OP is talking about.
It’s a well know issue with Dual Motor Model 3.

It is rear biased because the rear motor is more efficient. The Ravens are front biased and make all the difference in the world.

The slower you go the longer it stays in RWD. You have to goose it to get the front to engage and and during that transition you wish often slip or fishtail.

3/Y needs a “snow mode”. See other threads.

 

[acarney]

Yea this is what I'm getting at. It does kick in and get you straight, and it does have more play and a bit of looseness, as you put it. Which is all fine and dandy in low consequence situations, but that little bit of play and looseness on a patch of ice going 90km/h around a blind turn in the mountains here can lead to disaster, so it just takes a bit more caution as well. I have been playing a lot with the torque going up steep windy mountain roads in the snow, and you can drive it a bit more and have more fun with it than a subaru, and it is more fun to drive in the snow than the subaru because there is some drift and slip. My subaru with traction control on is just super boring no matter how you drive it because it won't really let you drift or slide at all. Race car drivers on a controlled track may find this AWD system superior in terms of time around a track etc but in real life situations, to put it simply, you just don't want any slippage on fast, busy roads.

They may be able to define the traction better though. You might be carrying in more speed in the Model Y compared to the Subaru... a track would just give the ability to take both cars at the same speed and same amount of throttle and see if one under steers more than the other, or if the rear slips. You’re absolutely correct that you don’t want to play or test that on public roads, but it would be very interesting to see the trajectory of both cars at the same speed and same turning radius...

 

[acarney]

I know exactly what OP is talking about.
It’s a well know issue with Dual Motor Model 3.

It is rear biased because the rear motor is more efficient. The Ravens are front biased and make all the difference in the world.

The slower you go the longer it stays in RWD. You have to goose it to get the front to engage and and during that transition you wish often slip or fishtail.

3/Y needs a “snow mode”. See other threads.

The front will kick in though with slippage of the rear. There have been a few tests with the car on rollers and showing how well the AWD system works; spoiler, three wheels can be on rollers (zero traction) and the fourth wheel can move the car.

 

[mswlogo]

The front will kick in though with slippage of the rear. There have been a few tests with the car on rollers and showing how well the AWD system works; spoiler, three wheels can be on rollers (zero traction) and the fourth wheel can move the car.

I’ve seen the videos and I’ve owned the car (Model 3). I know what it did and didn’t do in practice and does not come close to an Audi, Jeep or Subaru. But the X definitely does. That’s part of the reason I traded it. It was was the loudest (that was another reason) and one if the poorest AWD I’ve ever owned (going pretty far back). My 84 Audi Quattro did better in snow/ice. There have been numerous threads/complaints about it.

I highly suspect it could easily be fixed in software.

 

[Pianewman]

... My subaru with traction control on is just super boring no matter how you drive it because it won't really let you drift or slide at all. Race car drivers on a controlled track may find this AWD system superior in terms of time around a track etc but in real life situations, to put it simply, you just don't want any slippage on fast, busy roads.

For the average driver (and the wannabe "racers"), THIS is what should be produced for street use.

 

[Snow Drift]

@Mvdaog A few things to consider before you write off Tesla vs. automatic Subarus.

First, I have owned: 2005 WRX 5MT sedan, 2008 WRX 5MT hatch, 2011 WRX 5MT sedan, 2015 Crosstrek Hybrid CVT, 2018 STI 6MT and 2019 Crosstrek Hybrid (PHEV) CVT.

Automatic Subarus
Use what is called Active AWD, which uses a multi-plate clutch pack in the center of the drivetrain to split torque approximately 60/40 (front/rear). The front/rear differentials are open and manage wheel spin by VDC, TCS, etc. As the front wheels get 60% of the torque, unless there is slip then the system has a multitude of arrangements, it is very difficult to get the rear to slide out, since the rears receive less torque.

Manual Subarus
Use either Viscous Coupling center differential (WRX, Crosstrek, etc) or Planetary Gear center differential (STI). Manual Subarus either have 50/50 (viscous) or 49/51 (newer STI). The front/rear differentials are either open (newer WRX) or helical/torsen (newer STI). With the rear being powered 50% or more the rear is a lot more active. I can take any turn onto another snowy street, at a slow speed, with a little extra steering angle and get the rear to swivel. The same can happen on a snowy uphill. It is as expected.

This same exact thing happens with Teslas as the rear axel is powered by its own motor. I just drove to Dunk Donuts and was able to get the rear to move on a right turn onto a new street. This is normal as the rears are powered more than you are used to.

I had snow tires on the Model 3, and I have them on the Model Y and the car is great in bad weather.

 

[Margy]

TLDR: Model Y handling in winter conditions not nearly as good as Subaru

So bit of background.. I come from driving a subaru in the canadian interior mountains for the past 10 years. Prior to that was a FWD Honda. I ski and drive over mountain passes frequently and consider myself experienced in winter driving and variable conditions, as we're frequently above and below freezing, back and forth, with lots of precipitation.

I can now say after having been in a few snow storms now with the model Y, that it's handling is no where near as good as a Subaru. I had an outback and an impreza previously. My wife still drives an outback. With the subaru, we rarely ever felt fishtailing, slipping, or loss of control, even momentarily, while cornering. With the model Y, there is fishtailing with almost every cornering attempt if there's snow, packed snow, slush or ice. Going up hill, the subaru would charge up snowy and slippery conditions with confidence and mostly a straight path. With the model Y, there is quite a bit of deviation to straight, and there is some struggling in regards to keeping speed etc.

I do notice that with the off-road assist, it does help getting up our steep and windy driveway. In normal driving mode, there may have been some days I couldn't get up to my house very confidently. There are frequently FWD cars that can't make it to our house in the winter.

I should note on both cars I use studded nokian hakkapelitas. So tires are not the difference.

I did a lot of research on subarus AWD in the past, and tried to review the Tesla AWD experience from previous owners before purchasing, and was hoping it would be better than I have found it to be, is based on previous reviews. That being said, although the slipping and fishtailing are concerning, I do have confidence in the AWD system keeping me safe because it kicks in very quickly to get the car back on track, it's a very brief amount of time before the car is back on track.

So, there are going to be times when it is very slippery, that if I'm taking a corner, I will have to slow down more and be more cautious about a loss of traction, because the slightest fish tail could send me spinning in circles. In the Subaru, I knew that as long as other cars were driving on the road, I was fine no matter what the conditions. I will be more cautious and aware in the Tesla. And as my wife said, this might actually be a good thing, as in the Subaru we never truly knew the road conditions as we never felt the loss of traction. Literally, we would sometimes step out of the car and fall down as our feet couldn't get traction on the ice we were just driving on, but never felt the ice in the car. Now I know when it's slippery and when to drive more cautious.

Love the car, and I sorta expected going in it wasn't going to match the Subaru in this regard. Why would it, it's not their focus. It doesn't change my love for the car, and I still feel much more safe than most cars on the road, and certainly much better than a FWD car or a truck without any weight in the back. But for anyone wondering, I can confidently say, it doesn't match a Subaru for winter driving. I'm only writing this because I would have liked to see a review like this before purchasing, even though I would have still bought it.

TLDR: Model Y handling in winter conditions not nearly as good as Subaru

So bit of background.. I come from driving a subaru in the canadian interior mountains for the past 10 years. Prior to that was a FWD Honda. I ski and drive over mountain passes frequently and consider myself experienced in winter driving and variable conditions, as we're frequently above and below freezing, back and forth, with lots of precipitation.

I can now say after having been in a few snow storms now with the model Y, that it's handling is no where near as good as a Subaru. I had an outback and an impreza previously. My wife still drives an outback. With the subaru, we rarely ever felt fishtailing, slipping, or loss of control, even momentarily, while cornering. With the model Y, there is fishtailing with almost every cornering attempt if there's snow, packed snow, slush or ice. Going up hill, the subaru would charge up snowy and slippery conditions with confidence and mostly a straight path. With the model Y, there is quite a bit of deviation to straight, and there is some struggling in regards to keeping speed etc.

I do notice that with the off-road assist, it does help getting up our steep and windy driveway. In normal driving mode, there may have been some days I couldn't get up to my house very confidently. There are frequently FWD cars that can't make it to our house in the winter.

I should note on both cars I use studded nokian hakkapelitas. So tires are not the difference.

I did a lot of research on subarus AWD in the past, and tried to review the Tesla AWD experience from previous owners before purchasing, and was hoping it would be better than I have found it to be, is based on previous reviews. That being said, although the slipping and fishtailing are concerning, I do have confidence in the AWD system keeping me safe because it kicks in very quickly to get the car back on track, it's a very brief amount of time before the car is back on track.

So, there are going to be times when it is very slippery, that if I'm taking a corner, I will have to slow down more and be more cautious about a loss of traction, because the slightest fish tail could send me spinning in circles. In the Subaru, I knew that as long as other cars were driving on the road, I was fine no matter what the conditions. I will be more cautious and aware in the Tesla. And as my wife said, this might actually be a good thing, as in the Subaru we never truly knew the road conditions as we never felt the loss of traction. Literally, we would sometimes step out of the car and fall down as our feet couldn't get traction on the ice we were just driving on, but never felt the ice in the car. Now I know when it's slippery and when to drive more cautious.

Love the car, and I sorta expected going in it wasn't going to match the Subaru in this regard. Why would it, it's not their focus. It doesn't change my love for the car, and I still feel much more safe than most cars on the road, and certainly much better than a FWD car or a truck without any weight in the back. But for anyone wondering, I can confidently say, it doesn't match a Subaru for winter driving. I'm only writing this because I would have liked to see a review like this before purchasing, even though I would have still bought it.

 

[Margy]

Prior to my Y purchase, I was driving a 2013 Manual Transmission Subaru Outback that was fantastic in heavy snow conditions both on the highway, and on local roads. Living in Syracuse, NY, there are a lot of steep hills, and Syracuse averages over 10 feet/3 meters of snow each year. I never had an issue with the Outback when it came to handling in snow conditions.

My first few experiences with my Model Y in snow weren't great in comparison to my Subaru (fishtailing at low speeds with barely any snow cover). But, I made two changes before this last storm which made all the difference: 1) I replaced the tires with Continental Xtreme Contact tires and 2) used the off-rode mode when driving on snow covered roads. I had no issues driving up or down snow (and ice and slush) covered hills, no slipping and no fishtailing. I'm not sure how much the heavier duty tires will impact my efficiency overall, but I feel much more confident in the Y's handling with these tires and use of off-road mode.

 

[GaryY]

Apologies for this dumb question. I can get that "off-road assist" makes sense for my "SnowMode" driver profile (along with chill mode and low regen), for more even front/rear wheel power distribution compared to normal driving. But wouldn't it be better if "off-road assist" didn't also take off the traction control?

 

[Snow Drift]

Apologies for this dumb question. I can get that "off-road assist" makes sense for my "SnowMode" driver profile (along with chill mode and low regen), for more even front/rear wheel power distribution compared to normal driving. But wouldn't it be better if "off-road assist" didn't also take off the traction control?

No. In deep snow, etc, you want the tires to spin for added grip. If TCS kicks in and brakes the spinning wheel you will just sit there, stuck. Many times also, TCS or VDC, etc, will reduce throttle input when it detects slipping. This reduces power to the wheels. Again, in a bad situation, you want extra torque at the wheels for brut force to free the wheels.

This is why most ICE drivers will turn OFF VDC, TCS, etc in snow.

This does not turn off your safety traction devices, ABS, etc. It just stops the nannies in the car from trying to baby the car. Similar to Track Mode in the Performance cars. Allowing slip, actually adds grip.

 

[GaryY]

No. In deep snow, etc, you want the tires to spin for added grip. If TCS kicks in and brakes the spinning wheel you will just sit there, stuck. Many times also, TCS or VDC, etc, will reduce throttle input when it detects slipping. This reduces power to the wheels. Again, in a bad situation, you want extra torque at the wheels for brut force to free the wheels.

This is why most ICE drivers will turn OFF VDC, TCS, etc in snow.

This does not turn off your safety traction devices, ABS, etc. It just stops the nannies in the car from trying to baby the car. Similar to Track Mode in the Performance cars. Allowing slip, actually adds grip.

Thanks, makes sense, better to slip a bit and grip than lose progress when trying to go up a hill etc..

 

[mswlogo]

Thanks, makes sense, better to slip a bit and grip than lose progress when trying to go up a hill etc..

Paddling through the snow is sometimes needed. But to have traction control “off” while driving in general slick conditions is a bad idea.

There is no compromise on the S/X. Full traction control and no rear end ready slip out in you when you don’t want it to. Like most good AWD systems.

 

[MdlY55]

Interesting read!

I’ve been looking for similar threads regarding the ModelY performance in iced and snowy hilly country roads. I was hoping the ModelY equipped with the same tires, studded Hakkapeliitta’s, could perform as good as a Subaru’s or my current Jeep GC in those same conditions.

 

[Midnightsun]

I am rather experienced in snow bound condition with better than 40 years behind the wheel. As a teenager my thrill was driving in major snowstorms, the bigger the better. RWD FWD AWD 4x4 have owned them all. The Tesla handles well in the snow however in sport mode it is obvious there is too much instant power happening causing the rear end to react slightly which gets put under control very quickly. Low regen and chill mode will definitely make a difference just like when I select snow mode on the Ridgeline or other vehicle. Basically drops the power or better put, drops the sensitivity of the gas pedal. Wait, what is the gas pedal/throttle officially called on an EV. Rheostat, Dimmer, Juice injector, power pedal?

The great news is a software update can tweak this to improve over time as more data comes in, try doing that on an ICE car.

Would be a nice feature to have a single button called snow mode that simply engages chill and low regen modes with a single touch. Or have it automatically select snow mode when a couple of wheel spins are sensed with a window saying so and the option to accept or override. Hello Elon, you listening?

 

[Pianewman]

Interesting read!

I’ve been looking for similar threads regarding the ModelY performance in iced and snowy hilly country roads. I was hoping the ModelY equipped with the same tires, studded Hakkapeliitta’s, could perform as good as a Subaru’s or my current Jeep GC in those same conditions.

..."equipped with the same size tire"...

 

[Uncle Paul]

Believe Subaru uses skinnier tires. That would make it track better in snow.

Subaru has a unique pancake motor that also tends to put the center of gravity lower (like Tesla) this also makes it better than most ICE vehicles in the show.

The lower horsepower engine with relatively flat torque curve also helps the lighter Subi get around in the deeper stuff.

Subaru also has traction focused AWD that is renowned for putting the torque down.

 

[Tipk99]

I've found the opposite as the OP, although I admittedly have more variables than he does. And my opinion isn't rooted in any technical knowledge of how the systems work... I do think torque plays a big role in the difference for me. We have a 2013 outback with studded tires and we have studless VikingContact 7s on the MY (although I downsized wheels and upsized diameter to 245/60/18s on the MY). The Subaru is dull as a spoon so you don't have to do much to not break loose other than drive slow and hope for the best, but I've never been super confident in it. The MY is way more torquey so in slippy conditions it does break free if you aren't careful... But off-road mode dulls everything and I've plowed throw deep snow, deep slush and slick ice with no worries at all... I was even able to stop going down a steep snowy hill and then back up... Never in the subaru. I have 100% more confidence in the MY than the subaru.

The road I live on is a twisty, mile long gravel road that gains about 500 feet (there's one hairpin we call chaos corner), it's covered with packed snow all winter (we generally have 3-4 ft on the ground)

 

[Mvdaog]

I've found the opposite as the OP, although I admittedly have more variables than he does. And my opinion isn't rooted in any technical knowledge of how the systems work... I do think torque plays a big role in the difference for me. We have a 2013 outback with studded tires and we have studless VikingContact 7s on the MY (although I downsized wheels and upsized diameter to 245/60/18s on the MY). The Subaru is dull as a spoon so you don't have to do much to not break loose other than drive slow and hope for the best, but I've never been super confident in it. The MY is way more torquey so in slippy conditions it does break free if you aren't careful... But off-road mode dulls everything and I've plowed throw deep snow, deep slush and slick ice with no worries at all... I was even able to stop going down a steep snowy hill and then back up... Never in the subaru. I have 100% more confidence in the MY than the subaru.

The road I live on is a twisty, mile long gravel road that gains about 500 feet (there's one hairpin we call chaos corner), it's covered with packed snow all winter (we generally have 3-4 ft on the ground)

I think my main point is being confused a bit.
We have two cars right now and are driving both. The Subaru and model y have same tires but I guess different widths. The Subaru is having no slipping and no problem getting to our house. The model y is all over the driveway and requiring me to push the accelerator pretty hard to keep going up our steep hill and not fail. I’ve experimented will all variables like regen accel mode and off road assist. Still not close to Subaru.
However I’m not concerned with that I don’t really care. It’s a private driveway I can fishtail and rally and slide around without consequence.
The concern is on highway at 90-100km/hr. You do not want any slip to happen at any time. There is frequent slipping and fishtailing. Luckily no large ice patches yet to send me hurdling across the road doing donuts. No slipping at all in Subaru. It is a safety problem. I really do hope they can software update making this a more true AWD system. Thanks for insight everyone I didn’t know it was RWD biased vehicle.

 

[Pianewman]

mvdaog: Please tell us the tire sizes you're comparing. That information is critical to the discussion. "...I guess different widths..." doesn't benefit the discussion.

 

[Mvdaog]

mvdaog: Please tell us the tire sizes you're comparing. That information is critical to the discussion. "...I guess different widths..." doesn't benefit the discussion.

Thought someone answered that already above... 2018 outback 18 in rims could Google if interested... don’t have car with me at current location
Edit: 225-60-18