Winter handling Subaru vs dual-motor model Y

[GaryY]

Tesla is basically a big playstation mount in a car! Tesla should be able to program all these different mode in the car and let the driver select different settings to suit the driver.

That would be best and we don’t have to debate this topic anymore!!!

Amen! I tweeted Elon maybe it will work !

 

[mswlogo]

Again, there is nothing wrong with the Tesla system and it works just as well as manual Subarus (which are better systems than automatic Subarus). If you want to compare roller tests, even automatic Subarus, they are rather similar to the Tesla. Both being way better than just about any other manufacturer.

There are a few differences between your Tesla and Subaru.

1) Instant Torque - You need to adjust your right foot input in slippery conditions
2) Rear Torque at 50%+ - Your car doesn't have that, and you just aren't used to how it acts...go get a manual Subaru and it's the same
3) Wider tires - Subarus have much narrower tires stock, or available aftermarket, which are better in the snow bc they carve through snow vs plowing a wide path/floating above it. That is just a downside for all sporty cars with large performance brake calipers requiring wider rims.

My main question would be, how much are you really "fishtailing?" Is it a wide arc like a RWD car who is struggling in the snow? Or, is it really a few mm or inch and your butt is just getting nervous? If it's an inch or two and then it corrects immediately, that is the same reaction of manual Subarus (which you saw I've owned many for 15 years, plus 2 automatics).

It has nothing todo with the increased torque. It's due to RWD bias. The front wheels have NO power most of the time. It's been documented and shown a bunch of times. And it clearly shows in the Videos.

You can see it clearly too if you run a CANBUS monitor.

It's not the end of the world. But it really shouldn't exist. Those that do understand it know it could be fixed in software. And it doesn't exist on S/X with the same instant torque. Technically with even MORE torque.

 

[mswlogo]

I have the Pirelli Sottozeros on. I'm by no means a winter driving expert and I need to play around a lot more, but the low regen seems like a no brainer, as per above the chill mode or feathering the throttle might delay the front wheels kicking in so not as sure about that as I thought when following this thread earlier. Definitely want to play around with "off road assist" if that puts more bias towards the front, looks like one person above found that helpful the other not clearly helpful...

I was glad they tested the off road assist in the Videos. I thought for sure it would help. But according to the Video's it did nothing.

 

[Noflash]

I'll likely keep my Outback for heavy snow days.

 

[laughMan]

It has nothing todo with the increased torque. It's due to RWD bias.

Usually when we talked about RWD biased, we are referring to power/torque application.

In the OP’s complaint, the car fishtail a bit with regen braking in a middle of a turn.

That’s Tesla’s program applying too much braking force on the rear wheel, causing the fishtail. Is this RWD biased on braking??

Since the rear motor is larger than the front motor, the rear motor has more braking force than the front on regen.

hmmm....

 

[jbcarioca]

My perspective on this comes from learning to drive in winter conditions and spending lots of winter time is a wide variety of vehicles while skiing everywhere from the Albert mountains in Iran to Northern Europe, the Alps and endless winters in Ontario, Northern New York, Michigan, Korea and Hokkaido. A bizarre collection of vehicle too.

Since 2015 most of that has been in Tesla Model S (RWD and AWD), Model X and Model P3.
I have owned AWD from Porsche 993 C4 to both my Tesla.

End of context. The Porsche and my Tesla both share a huge suplus of power coupled with pretty good traction control. But...
The Model S AWD and X has forward bias so tends to be very, very stable. The Model 3 and the Porsche have strong rear bias so can be easily overreacted and they are much more sensitive to throttle control. *i.e. NEVER drop power suddenly, especially on a corner." OTOH it's fairly easy to play if one has the space and imprudence.

IMHO there is only one solution that will make the Model 3, Model Y and the newest Model S and X behave with Subaru-like confidence. Of course they cannot ever be boring...

That solution is for all of us who are concerned to pester Elon directly as well as every single Tesla official person we can find to make a software upgrade for "snow and Ice Mode". a simple software upgrade can fix all the issues
I am making my requests today. Please everyone do that, all of Canada and Norway combined can do it all by themselves. Further there are many China Tesla drivers going to high mountains, enough that there are Destination chargers in Tibet. Everyone begging for this will certainly work and have a pretty fast software update to change the rear bias, reduce/eliminate regeneration and largely replicate chill mode otherwise.

Isn't that the solution?

Besides that I still stand solidly in the pro-Hakka camp. They've long been my only choice for winter tires, not least because they behave so well when there is not snow and ice. Why choose anything else?

 

[Mvdaog]

Usually when we talked about RWD biased, we are referring to power/torque application.

In the OP’s complaint, the car fishtail a bit with regen braking in a middle of a turn.

That’s Tesla’s program applying too much braking force on the rear wheel, causing the fishtail. Is this RWD biased on braking??

Since the rear motor is larger than the front motor, the rear motor has more braking force than the front on regen.

hmmm....

To be clear I wasn’t talking about fishtailing because of regenerative braking around a corner. Just fishtailing often and in any situations, throttle, no throttle, cruising, etc etc.

I agree we all should be pestering them for this. I wish I had Twitter I would tweet Elon about it.

 

[seniorcitizen]

My perspective on this comes from learning to drive in winter conditions and spending lots of winter time is a wide variety of vehicles while skiing everywhere from the Albert mountains in Iran to Northern Europe, the Alps and endless winters in Ontario, Northern New York, Michigan, Korea and Hokkaido. A bizarre collection of vehicle too.

Since 2015 most of that has been in Tesla Model S (RWD and AWD), Model X and Model P3.
I have owned AWD from Porsche 993 C4 to both my Tesla.

End of context. The Porsche and my Tesla both share a huge suplus of power coupled with pretty good traction control. But...
The Model S AWD and X has forward bias so tends to be very, very stable. The Model 3 and the Porsche have strong rear bias so can be easily overreacted and they are much more sensitive to throttle control. *i.e. NEVER drop power suddenly, especially on a corner." OTOH it's fairly easy to play if one has the space and imprudence.

IMHO there is only one solution that will make the Model 3, Model Y and the newest Model S and X behave with Subaru-like confidence. Of course they cannot ever be boring...

That solution is for all of us who are concerned to pester Elon directly as well as every single Tesla official person we can find to make a software upgrade for "snow and Ice Mode". a simple software upgrade can fix all the issues
I am making my requests today. Please everyone do that, all of Canada and Norway combined can do it all by themselves. Further there are many China Tesla drivers going to high mountains, enough that there are Destination chargers in Tibet. Everyone begging for this will certainly work and have a pretty fast software update to change the rear bias, reduce/eliminate regeneration and largely replicate chill mode otherwise.

Isn't that the solution?

Besides that I still stand solidly in the pro-Hakka camp. They've long been my only choice for winter tires, not least because they behave so well when there is not snow and ice. Why choose anything else?

If you have tweeted to Elon please share the link and I can make a comment as well.

thanks

 

[davraker]

Though I have made a snow profile that includes the settings previously discussed, there is clearly a need for a software solution that will alleviate the rear fishtails. My all wheel drive BMW seemed far more steady. Here that Elon? Tesla? BMW better in snow.

As my wife pointed out, clearly a California car.

 

[chinney]

I have not notice any fishtailing problem yet with our new Model 3 (delivery May 2020). I have not driven a full winter with it yet, but I have driven on some snowy and slippery roads. Our 2008 Subaru Legacy wagon meanwhile did have a real fishtailing issue, if you did not learn to modulate the throttle properly while cornering in the winter (although that is a pretty easy skill to learn and soon became automatic). I think that Subaru corrected that problem in later year models though.

Anyway, I will keep an eye out for the fishtailing on the Tesla as I drive it more in winter. The winter weather in this part of the country has not been that bad so far, so I have admittedly not tested it yet completely. I would strongly support a winter driving mode software update if I did notice a problem.

 

[Ezmendriz]

I agree with the assessment, it seems to be a problem related to the rear biased of the car. of course the moment the traction control feel things are going out of control it correct it. I have experienced it on just wet road when making a turn. that torque is addictive. The reason the car is so rear biased is efficiency. Tesla should provide an additional traction mode to snow/ice even if it cost some efficiency.

For the people with performance, Can you correct the issue using track mode to balance the bias? or it remove the traction control?

 

[jbcarioca]

If you have tweeted to Elon please share the link and I can make a comment as well.

thanks

inglesdesousa@inglesdesousa

 

[jcanoe]

The following video is from winter 2020; it is worth watching if you have not viewed it before. The vehicle is a Tesla Model Y engineering vehicle being tested in Alaska in -29C / -21F temperature conditions. First up is traction control testing on a ramp where one side of the ramp is coated in ice. The Model Y nails it.

Then, starting at the 7:50 mark, the video shows the results of attempting to accelerate on the snow and ice covered test track (probably a frozen lake) with the Model Y's front motor turned off and traction control also turned off. Under acceleration the Model Y test vehicle quickly loses traction in the rear and spins out of control.

The video then describes but does not show what happens when the rear motor and traction control are turned off and only the front motor is driven. The video describes being unable to make the Model Y turn while accelerating when only the front motor is driven. (Not sure I understand that explanation but whatever.)

Finally the video shows the Model Y engineering test vehicle being driven with both front and rear motors active, presumably traction control also turned on. (Tesla Long Range Dual Motor Model Y FTW.)

 

[Snow Drift]

I will tell you, I do not notice the front being off during driving. The M3 and MY do not have the typical physics of a RWD car. The reaction time must be instant or it may be due to the low center of gravity, but the rear, even with lift, doesn’t rotate or feel light on dry or wet roads (not talking about snow/ice).

I just know that the actions described do take place on rear-biased AWD platforms. Even 50/50 does it.

If you guys prefer 51+ to the front, they need to make a software change.

 

[Ezmendriz]

About 50/50 I used to have a lightly modified 2002 WRX, about 260hp at the wheels. That generation was 50/50 with a wimp LSD on the rear. The thing was, if the tail got lose in a corner, it take too long for the front to start receiving more power from the central diff (another mechanical LSD). so I have many scary situations with until I learn to control it. With the Y, being rear biased, the slide is sooner but the traction control works really fast to correct it. The control will be a lot better just with changing the power to be 50/50 in slippery conditions due to the speed of the traction control quick ability to intervene IMHO.

Form my view, there are to main reasons for the 3/Y being so rear biased:
1) Efficiency. the rear motor is more efficient.
2) Fun, a rear based car is way more fun to drive.

 

[Mvdaog]

We’re beating a dead horse here. We should have all driving modes available to suit our preferences. To me, fun and efficiency would be easy to sacrifice to ensure my car doesn’t slide out of control maiming or killing my children. For others, it’s fun to slide around the road. We should just be able to pick a more stable driving experience if we want it.

 

[Snow Drift]

About 50/50 I used to have a lightly modified 2002 WRX, about 260hp at the wheels. That generation was 50/50 with a wimp LSD on the rear. The thing was, if the tail got lose in a corner, it take too long for the front to start receiving more power from the central diff (another mechanical LSD). so I have many scary situations with until I learn to control it. With the Y, being rear biased, the slide is sooner but the traction control works really fast to correct it. The control will be a lot better just with changing the power to be 50/50 in slippery conditions due to the speed of the traction control quick ability to intervene IMHO.

Form my view, there are to main reasons for the 3/Y being so rear biased:
1) Efficiency. the rear motor is more efficient.
2) Fun, a rear based car is way more fun to drive.

Yup, Viscous Coupling center and rear differentials. I had a 2005 Blob-Eye.

 

[GaryY]

If you have tweeted to Elon please share the link and I can make a comment as well.

thanks

@garykunkel2 can't get on Twitter on this computer but was my last "Tweet and Reply" before I retweeted inglesdesousa

See some SnowMode hashtags out there, maybe #ModelYSnowMode or #TeslaSnowMode
I'm no Twitter guru that's for sure

 

[seniorcitizen]

@garykunkel2 can't get on Twitter on this computer but was my last "Tweet and Reply" before I retweeted inglesdesousa

See some SnowMode hashtags out there, maybe #ModelYSnowMode or #TeslaSnowMode
I'm no Twitter guru that's for sure

If folks start tweeting using the hashtag it may catch Elons attention. It is a reasonable request and it will make MY safer to drive.

 

[mswlogo]

To be clear I wasn’t talking about fishtailing because of regenerative braking around a corner. Just fishtailing often and in any situations, throttle, no throttle, cruising, etc etc.

I agree we all should be pestering them for this. I wish I had Twitter I would tweet Elon about it.

Thanks for correcting him on this as I didn't see evidence of Regen being the root cause in your original post either.

Most of the time when it's cold and icy out I already lost most of my regen anyway !!!