Would you buy again MS with MCU1 or wait couple of yrs to get newer model?

[whitex]

The issue with the MCU V1 is that the flash memory will wear out and brick it. Not if but when.

Same issue with MCU2, somewhat alleviated by a larger emmc chip but also with more software the logging is likely growing too. MCU2 is simply new and hasn't been around for long (since March 2018), hence we haven't heard many fail stories yet. Less than 2 year old MCU1's were not failing either.

 

[Target]

For how I use the car I would, assuming I didn't need/want the extra space, I would get a 3LR because it travels faster on long road trips.

It charges faster, and is more efficient. On 1000 mile+ road trips it will cut charging time in half compared to an older S. Just for commuting it doesn't matter though.

I wouldn't buy a 3LR right now, I would wait until next year for when the 18's are 2 years old and prices start to come down some on the used market.

 

[kapone]

This is a "philosophical" question, rather than a "practical" question. It's not about Model S/X/3/Y/whatever.

Like I said earlier, there will always be something newer/better/faster/<whatever> on the horizon. Teslas are no different from other cars in that regard (now) that people are starting to look at "value".

Is a used S better than a new 3...would not even have popped in people's minds a year or two back. Tesla has/had cars at different price levels and you mostly didn't consider the used car market for Teslas. That has changed.

Time has proven that "FSD" is still vaporware and any buying decisions based on that are a forgone conclusion. It'll happen when it'll happen, you can't/shouldn't base your buying decision on that.

That leaves us with an (admittedly amazing) "electric" car. The rose colored glasses are coming off and people are asking "Is it really worth that?". Especially since Tesla has crossed the 200K volume mark overall, and Federal/State incentives are already down significantly and will disappear in the not too distant future.

 

[gangzoom]

I really like MS exterior look but getting 50k car with "older" technology now does not sound like a good idea.
My coworker has 2016 MS ,yellowing screen, very often maps are loading slow (he said),no Netflix, internet browser not working..... He said soon he will trade in it for MS 2018 model.

Please don't tell me your co-worker has been fooled by the confidence man running Tesla.

Trading up to a new car just for Netflix and web browser, he can afford to spend $20-30k+ trading in for a new car but not $100 on any kind of smart phone?

Elon has played a blinder with enabling web based streaming on v10 MCU2 cars, makes Apples attempts to charge laptop prices for a mobile phone look amateurish in comparison!

 

[Cape Coddess]

The issue with the MCU V1 is that the flash memory will wear out and brick it. Not if but when.

What does that even mean... in old lady English please?

 

[GSP]

@Cape Coddess,

The MCU uses “Flash memory” to store its software and data. Data can be read an infinite number of times, but new data can only be stored a finite number of times before the memory chip wears out and starts to fail. Smart phones and tablets also use this type of memory chip.

For some reason Tesla constantly writes data to MCU memory, which wears the chip out after a few years. When this happens, the center screen becomes inoperable. People that have dismantled and compared MCU1 vs. 2 say that MCU2 has a larger flash memory chip, so it should last longer.

GSP

 

[Cape Coddess]

@Cape Coddess,

The MCU uses “Flash memory” to store its software and data. Data can be read an infinite number of times, but new data can only be stored a finite number of times before the memory chip wears out and starts to fail. Smart phones and tablets also use this type of memory chip.

For some reason Tesla constantly writes data to MCU memory, which wears the chip out after a few years. When this happens, the center screen becomes inoperable. People that have dismantled and compared MCU1 vs. 2 say that MCU2 has a larger flash memory chip, so it should last longer.

GSP

Got it. That's very interesting! Thank you. And bricked means broken? So will Tesla change out a broken MCU1 with an MCU2 under warranty if it comes to that?

 

[viper2ko]

Got it. That's very interesting! Thank you. And bricked means broken? So will Tesla change out a broken MCU1 with an MCU2 under warranty if it comes to that?

No they won't. You get a refurbished MCU1. You pay for $3000 them to replace the entire MCU even though the issue is a $50 memory card.

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Got it. That's very interesting! Thank you. And bricked means broken? So will Tesla change out a broken MCU1 with an MCU2 under warranty if it comes to that?

brick - definition of brick, to brick a device, BuzzWord from Macmillan
brick
verb [transitive] informal
to cause a mobile device (e.g. mobile phone, tablet computer) to stop working by updating or installing software on it

 

[Cape Coddess]

No they won't. You get a refurbished MCU1. You pay for $3000 them to replace the entire MCU even though the issue is a $50 memory card.

Wait, what?
The MCU gets so full of their software that it freezes up and they just replace it with the same thing? Do I have that right? If so, how does the replacement not get filled to capacity with the same software? Or are they updating the memory card?

Seems silly to not just do it ourselves for that kind of money.

 

[David29]

The issue with the MCU V1 is that the flash memory will wear out and brick it. Not if but when.

Everyone driving a used car that is out of warranty has to expect some failures -- shock absorbers, tires, brakes, ball joints, Ac compressors -- any of that stuff can and will eventually wear out and cost money to repair or replace. The computer is perhaps a more expensive item than most of these other things, but not really qualitatively different. I would hope people would go into a purchase with open eyes but not panic about the computer.

 

[David29]

To answer the original question --
I asked myself something similar, first when my initial lease ran out, and I had to decide what to do. I bought my car because I liked it and it had been reliable, so I figured "the devil you know," etc. I could have found a newer used car, or bought a brand new one, but did not feel the extra cost was warranted by the potential benefits to me.
The Model 3 does not particularly appeal to me, mainly because of its smaller size. Plus, I am quite happy with the performance and features of my Model S. I have leather seats and a sunroof, neither available any more. The AP1 performance is solid, better for now than what the AP2 seems to be doing. I know AP2 will catch up and eventually be better, but for the moment at least I am quite content with what my car can do. I have no need for or interest in the video games. It would be nice if the computer were a bit faster, but again it is adequate. Some of the features of the Raven versions are attractive, such as the enhanced air suspension and the better audio system, but nothing is so compelling that I feel that my car is outmoded, and I feel no lust to get a new one.
Then I thought about this choice again when my warranty ran out. But this Tesla was my very first new car, the only one I have ever owned in 50 years of driving that had a new car warranty. So, I was not intimidated as much by driving a used car without a warranty as some folks are. But before too long, I decided to purchase the ESA, so I suppose I was hedging my bets, partly because of the risk of the computer failure but also because there are any number of other costly repairs the car might face in the next 4 years. Full disclosure: I live near a service center (Dedham) and have had very good service there. Plus I am retired so I am not quite as dependent on my car as some people would be.
Everyone has to wrestle with this choice and decide on the basis of their own needs and value criteria. So far, my 2015 Model S is still a great car!

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Wait, what?
The MCU gets so full of their software that it freezes up and they just replace it with the same thing? Do I have that right? If so, how does the replacement not get filled to capacity with the same software? Or are they updating the memory card?

Seems silly to not just do it ourselves for that kind of money.

The problem is more a physical failure of the flash memory because it can only be written and overwritten a few tens of thousands of times before the physical substrate on the flash memory degrades and can’t store information anymore. This process occurs more quickly in recent years because there is more information being logged to the eMMC constantly, so it’s always full and individual memory blocks are being constantly overwritten, accelerating their physical deterioration and end-of-life. There just wasn’t as much stuff being written and logged to the eMMC memory in the MCU in the first few years of the Model S.

 

[Cape Coddess]

The problem is more a physical failure of the flash memory because it can only be written and overwritten a few tens of thousands of times before the physical substrate on the flash memory degrades and can’t store information anymore. This process occurs more quickly in recent years because there is more information being logged to the eMMC constantly, so it’s always full and individual memory blocks are being constantly overwritten, accelerating their physical deterioration and end-of-life. There just wasn’t as much stuff being written and logged to the eMMC memory in the MCU in the first few years of the Model S.

Oh, I get it. Like a VCR tape. Eventually after you've taped over it a hundred times (yes, I still have VCRs and tapes) it just won't play ball anymore. And Tesla just gives us another VCR tape instead of a CD. Right?

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Oh, I get it. Like a VCR tape. Eventually after you've taped over it a hundred times (yes, I still have VCRs and tapes) it just won't play ball anymore. And Tesla just gives us another VCR tape instead of a CD. Right?

Right! Great analogy.

The real crux of the problem is that there is such as thing as super-reliable "automotive grade" flash memory, designed for this very thing - to have a firehose of data constantly being written and rewritten for years without failing - and bafflingly, Tesla chose to use a lower off-the-shelf grade of flash memory for their MCU, even in the newer models. More akin to what you would see in a run-of-the-mill consumer electronics device. But those don't have 1 GB/sec written to them constantly while they're being used to semi-autonomously drive down the street... at least not my iPhone...

 

[Target]

They bought the board, with that flash already mounted to it, from Nvidia. I am sure they could have paid Nvidia to build a different version of that board for them with more resilient flash, but that would have added cost.

The ironic part is the logs being written aren't even logs about the car. The car logs are written to a microSD flash drive that can easily be replaced. If they really want the OS Logs, which are wearing out the emmc, they could just write them to the microSD drive. It is trivial to write logs someplace else or not write them at all, but they have not yet chosen to do so.

Of course with any critical data you should provide users a way to back up their car's critical settings easily, maybe to a drive attached to the USB port? Nope...

 

[banned-66611]

I wonder if it's insurance for Tesla. When something goes wrong and the car is wrecked or someone dies they can pull the logs off the flash memory and use them to avoid liability. "Didn't have their hand on the wheel for 5 seconds before the crash" or "was operating the touch screen at time of accident", that sort of thing.

 

[David29]

Maybe Tesla has a contract with Nvidia that either requires or encourages Tesla to replace the entire MC1 and Nvidia has to eat some portion of the cost. When the Service Center thought that I needed an MCU, they told me I could not have the removed unit because they were required to return the "core" when done as a warranty repair. In other words, maybe Tesla is holding Nvidia responsible for the memory failures.

 

[Target]

I wonder if it's insurance for Tesla. When something goes wrong and the car is wrecked or someone dies they can pull the logs off the flash memory and use them to avoid liability. "Didn't have their hand on the wheel for 5 seconds before the crash" or "was operating the touch screen at time of accident", that sort of thing.

Those logs are written to the microSD card, not the emmc.

 

[Target]

Maybe Tesla has a contract with Nvidia that either requires or encourages Tesla to replace the entire MC1 and Nvidia has to eat some portion of the cost. When the Service Center thought that I needed an MCU, they told me I could not have the removed unit because they were required to return the "core" when done as a warranty repair. In other words, maybe Tesla is holding Nvidia responsible for the memory failures.

Possibly, but the cost or removing and replacing the MCU would still be absorbed by Tesla. Far better to just avoid the whole situation and not write the OS logs to the emmc in the first place.