X90D is really a 65kwh pack with 150 mile range

[AnxietyRanger]

Car does not include consumption while parked in the kWh/mile calculation.

You know this, so I am surprised at your irrelevant and incorrect response.

I grant you that parking counts into it, I just can't see the relevance within a single day of driving. The explanations here are actual usable kWh and degradation.

This was not parking for days - not even for a night.

To the OP: there's a very detailed thread on here by wk057 about how much capacity is in each type of battery, degradation, etc. Would link to it but on mobile, should be easy to find using forum search.

Which I linked to in message #3.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yeah, that's what I remember too. That's why the trip meter number almost never adds up.

This was intra-day driving. The parking kWh is not significant, nor the explanation here.

 

[J1mbo]

This was intra-day driving. The parking kWh is not significant, nor the explanation here.

You literally have no idea how much the car lost when parked.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You literally have no idea how much the car lost when parked.

Seriously?

How much do you reckon the car lost while parked in non-freezing weather during a single day? Not night. Between driving sessions between morning and evening.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Realistically the vampire drain while parked during stoppages on a single day would be to the tune of, what, maybe 0.5 kWh? That's a rounding error in this discussion where the comparison 65 kWh was a roughly rounded number in itself already.

Sure, if we want theories, I guess it is possible that the car malfunctioned or was left on heater all day and used more than that. Some failure is always on option.

But IMO I presented a very nice theory in message #3. The biggest deal is that 90 kWh battery in reality is 81 kWh battery. The second thing is, 90 kWh batteries have been hit by a harder than usual degradation and that definitely can show one year in.

 

[sladotron]

@sladotron do you have limited regen when starting out on a trip at lower temperatures? If you do then the battery is not at an optimal temperature. temperature of the battery is very relevant regarding energy availability + peak power output
also every time you park and the battery cools off there is that much lost energy from the cooling which is not accounted for(which may be small, i don't know?)
If the car really keeps the battery at ideal operating temp (which I do not believe it does, it keeps it from being at unacceptable temperatures for the chemistry) then it would be using a lot of power all the time in cold temps. It does not and the battery gets cold soaked(when parked) down to a certain point before battery heating will kick in,which I have never seen (only been down to 20F in my S)

I rarely get limited regen in the morning because the car sits overnight in a heated garage. I do get limited regen if the car sits outside any considerable amount of time.
Either way, I am reporting real world numbers and not EPA numbers.

On a side note, I turned on range mode on today to see if that makes any difference, and it seemed like it did at first, my consumption dropped from 270 wh/km to around 200 wh/km, however after about 15 minutes of driving it got cold inside. So I cranked up the heater from regular 18 C (64F) to 22 degrees C (71.5F). Overall, range mode did help today with the consumption. I think at the end of the day it was around 250 wh/km.

I mean with 150 mile range, you can forget about pulling any kind of trailer. Please set your expectations accordingly. Don't trust the rated range number.

 

[CO2CLEAN]

The "90" battery has 85,5 kWh capacity of which 81,8 kWh is usable when new. 90% of 81,8 is 73,6 kWh. Take away 5% degradation and you get 69,9 kWh. 26 km based on the rated range number equals 5,1 kWh (0,198 kWh/km). So 69,9 - 5,1 - 65 = -0,2 kWh. In other words, it looks like the numbers add up and you have less than 5% degradation. Hope this helps

To understand what the EPA range tests are, you can find information here: Detailed Test Information

 

[sladotron]

The "90" battery has 85,5 kWh capacity of which 81,8 kWh is usable when new. 90% of 81,8 is 73,6 kWh. Take away 5% degradation and you get 69,9 kWh. 26 km based on the rated range number equals 5,1 kWh (0,198 kWh/km). So 69,9 - 5,1 - 65 = -0,2 kWh. In other words, it looks like the numbers add up and you have less than 5% degradation. Hope this helps

To understand what the EPA range tests are, you can find information here: Detailed Test Information

Thanks for your input Olivier, however I would not agree on your calculation. I reported 62 not 65kwh left, and in my experience 26 km of range does not equal to 5kwh.
You have probably watched Bjorn's video where he got stuck on the road with 14 km of rated range. The same thing happend to me only a bit different.
I went to a local park for a walk with 15 km of rated range left. When I came back an hour later, the car showed 3km of rated range left and quickly dropping. Within 30 minutes it was at 0km. All doors were closed, no preheating, and hvac was turned off before i left.
So I had car towed home which was 12 km away from the park.

What I have noticed several times is when the battery gets close to empty (15km or less) there seems to be a rapid loss of range with the car just sitting. It seems like the battery itself wants to go to empty. So my guess based on what I have experienced is actually 26km - 15km is 11km of usable range.
My consumption rate was 270 wh/km. so my best guess is the car probably had another 270wh/km × 11km = 3kwh, and would be dead afterwards.
So my experience 62 used plus 3 kwh left, then 65 kwh is the usable limit.

If 73.6 kwh is 90% of theoretical usable energy and 65 kwh of actual usable then I would say 11.7% degradation.

Possibly a rounding error somewhere, so perhaps 10% degradation for sure, probably more.

 

[CO2CLEAN]

Thanks for your input Olivier, however I would not agree on your calculation. I reported 62 not 65kwh left, and in my experience 26 km of range does not equal to 5kwh.
You have probably watched Bjorn's video where he got stuck on the road with 14 km of rated range. The same thing happend to me only a bit different.
I went to a local park for a walk with 15 km of rated range left. When I came back an hour later, the car showed 3km of rated range left and quickly dropping. Within 30 minutes it was at 0km. All doors were closed, no preheating, and hvac was turned off before i left.
So I had car towed home which was 12 km away from the park.

What I have noticed several times is when the battery gets close to empty (15km or less) there seems to be a rapid loss of range with the car just sitting. It seems like the battery itself wants to go to empty. So my guess based on what I have experienced is actually 26km - 15km is 11km of usable range.
My consumption rate was 270 wh/km. so my best guess is the car probably had another 270wh/km × 11km = 3kwh, and would be dead afterwards.
So my experience 62 used plus 3 kwh left, then 65 kwh is the usable limit.

If 73.6 kwh is 90% of theoretical usable energy and 65 kwh of actual usable then I would say 11.7% degradation.

Possibly a rounding error somewhere, so perhaps 10% degradation for sure, probably more.

Right, I see the 62 kWh. I disagree with the rated range aspect. Rated range for the Model X 90D is around 0,198 kWh/km (it might even be a little higher). So 26 km does equal at least 5,1 kWh. The usable capacity of the 90 pack is 81,8 kWh according to the BMS. 90% therefor gives us 73,6 kWh. Thus, 73,6 - 62 - 5,1 = 6,5 kWh missing. This would be 7,9% degradation.

Your loss in battery capacity when the car is sitting still for a while, could be explained by batteries having less capacity when they become cold. Once you warm up the battery, the capacity will be restored. The Model 3 shows the same effect by displaying a blue portion of the battery in the app and car screen. If you notice the loss of capacity, when the car is parked, is the same when the battery is warm and the car is sitting still in room temperature (or at least not below zero), then something might be wrong with the car.

 

[sladotron]

Right, I see the 62 kWh. I disagree with the rated range aspect. Rated range for the Model X 90D is around 0,198 kWh/km (it might even be a little higher). So 26 km does equal at least 5,1 kWh. The usable capacity of the 90 pack is 81,8 kWh according to the BMS. 90% therefor gives us 73,6 kWh. Thus, 73,6 - 62 - 5,1 = 6,5 kWh missing. This would be 7,9% degradation.

Your loss in battery capacity when the car is sitting still for a while, could be explained by batteries having less capacity when they become cold. Once you warm up the battery, the capacity will be restored. The Model 3 shows the same effect by displaying a blue portion of the battery in the app and car screen. If you notice the loss of capacity, when the car is parked, is the same when the battery is warm and the car is sitting still in room temperature (or at least not below zero), then something might be wrong with the car.

Either way, how can Tesla state that the pack is 90kwh when theoretical max capacity is only 85.8kwh?

I guess you can call it 85+, but definitely not a 90 pack. Wasn't there a model S with 85+ badging?

I mean people are making purchase decisions based on that information.

I wouldn't be surprised if rated range number is also marketing because I could never come even close to achieving that number.

Model X is still the best car overall in my opinion.

 

[CO2CLEAN]

Either way, how can Tesla state that the pack is 90kwh when theoretical max capacity is only 85.8kwh?

I guess you can call it 85+, but definitely not a 90 pack. Wasn't there a model S with 85+ badging?

I mean people are making purchase decisions based on that information.

I wouldn't be surprised if rated range number is also marketing because I could never come even close to achieving that number.

Model X is still the best car overall in my opinion.

I understand that the badging is wrong for the "90" battery. Also the 85. Luckily, Tesla decided to do it right with all other batteries. Hopefully they continue being honest about the capacity for new batteries/models.

The "85+" badge was for the P85 (Model S) with staggered suspension/wheels.

Rated range is based on standardised tests to compare different cars. Unfortunately these tests are not even close to reality... However, their sole purpose (long long ago) was to make comparisons possible. The new European test will be more realistic, but still less realistic as the EPA (USA) test.

By the way: very cool that you have a Tesla in Russia Hopefully more Superchargers will come to you soon. I think the only one currently available is in Moscow.

 

[DarkMatter]

My April 2017 build is still showing better than originally rated miles. I wonder if there was a formulation change somewhere during 90 production.

 

[sladotron]

I understand that the badging is wrong for the "90" battery. Also the 85. Luckily, Tesla decided to do it right with all other batteries. Hopefully they continue being honest about the capacity for new batteries/models.

The "85+" badge was for the P85 (Model S) with staggered suspension/wheels.

Rated range is based on standardised tests to compare different cars. Unfortunately these tests are not even close to reality... However, their sole purpose (long long ago) was to make comparisons possible. The new European test will be more realistic, but still less realistic as the EPA (USA) test.

By the way: very cool that you have a Tesla in Russia Hopefully more Superchargers will come to you soon. I think the only one currently available is in Moscow.

Currently we have zero public superchargers available. The one in moscow is not operated by tesla but is privately owned supercharger, only available to club members.

There are superchargers planned between St-Petersburg and Moscow, however they've been in "planned" status for some time now

 

[Cheburashka]

OP said he has never used Superchargers, and charges to 90% only in a heated garage. The pack should have very minimal degradation in this case, IMO.

I didn't even know there was a SC in Moscow although I haven't been back in about 3 years now.

 

[mspohr]

Sounds plausible. Degradation and actual usable battery.

The 90 kWh pack has been reported to have the heaviest degradation known in Teslas, so a year in there would be degradation. There is at least one report of around 8% of degradation in that time.

As new, the 90 kWh pack actually is 85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable. 82% of that (90% you chargerd to and 8% degradation assumption) of 81.8 kWh is 67 kWh. Excuse the rough math, but you should get the idea.

90 battery pack degradation

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade) #66

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade)

Tesla's 85 kWh rating needs an asterisk (up to 81 kWh, with up to ~77 kWh usable)

90 kWh is probably the unluckiest of all the batteries. 100 kWh has more realistic actual kWh, while 85 kWh was better due to less degradation.

Battery capacity is not a fixed number like weight but varies with temperature, charging rate, discharge rate, degradation, etc. It's an estimate.
I think this is why Tesla doesn't specify battery capacity for the Model 3... just SR and LR with their associated EPA rated miles. That's as accurate as you're going to get.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Battery capacity is not a fixed number like weight but varies with temperature, charging rate, discharge rate, degradation, etc. It's an estimate.
I think this is why Tesla doesn't specify battery capacity for the Model 3... just SR and LR with their associated EPA rated miles. That's as accurate as you're going to get.

My point, though, is that the 90 kWh battery has apparently been the least "accurate" of them all - by a significant margin, according to current knowledge. 85 kWh was much better and again 100 kWh is better. The chemistry change apparently didn't quite work out for the 90 kWh - or so goes the speculation.

As for the Model 3 SR/LR nomenclature, some speculation on that here: Rumor summary: Blind-spot cameras, Rain sensing, Level 3, Big battery, Interior/HUD #94

 

[Gwgan]

Took a typical day trip yesterday. 2 adults and 2 dogs. Studded snow tires. Temps around 40F with light wind. Started at 94% drove 145 miles, ended with 15% but a couple hours later was down to 11% before plugging in. So it is fair to say that in winter this P90D has a practical range of about 150 miles.

 

[DarkMatter]

You didn't talk about speed, which makes your data point a little less useful.

 

[Gwgan]

You didn't talk about speed, which makes your data point a little less useful.

Speed not so important, not hypermiling, not screaming down a divided highway. Typical New England roads on a typical day driving to the park and back. Best road is rolling 2 lane Rt 1, speeds up to 60mph, usually up to 55mph, about half the trip on smaller lumpy roads.
Edit: Attached trip data

 

[mspohr]

Speed not so important, not hypermiling, not screaming down a divided highway. Typical New England roads on a typical day driving to the park and back. Best road is rolling 2 lane Rt 1, speeds up to 60mph, usually up to 55mph, about half the trip on smaller lumpy roads.
Edit: Attached trip data

Range at 25 mph is about twice the range at 60 mph.