Yet another reason why the Dual Chargers option is worth having...

[mknox]

But if you were on a road trip and there was a Plug-in-Prius or Volt there you would not be happy (and you were queued behind a couple more of them).

True, but what I've done in the past is call ahead and get them to put a cone or something in the spot. I figure if I have an actual reservation, that should take precedence over simple opportunity charging. I would be equally annoyed if another Tesla was plugged in to a HPWC when I arrived if I needed the charge too.

 

[wycolo]

In the San Juan Capistrano location it is almost always full

Call it a hunch (I've been there twice) but I'm guessing SJC SC is the poster child for local LuLu usage. As in 'in lieu of home charging'. Lots of KWHs there (it comes up often in second place to Fremont). I'd sure like to see TM stats of vins using SJC.
--

 

[qwk]

How is J1772 inadequate for 80A L2? It can charge all EVs at all rates, and match the speed of a HPWC. Agreed the standard is useless for L3, but for a L2 station it can do everything an HPWC can do, plus is open to everyone. If I was running a hotel I'd rather accommodate all EV guests rather than limit it to a few.

I never said that J1772 is inadequate for 80A. What I said was that every other charging connector cannot match Tesla's 135kw of power, not even close. Do you want multiple huge connectors/ports on your vehicle? I sure dont. One sleek connector suits me just fine. By supporting any other standard other than their own, Tesla would be crapping on their own superior connector, not to mention making their cars wait behind hybrids who won't be stranded if they don't charge. This is just business 101.

 

[mknox]

I never said that J1772 is inadequate for 80A. What I said was that every other charging connector cannot match Tesla's 135kw of power. Do you want multiple huge connectors/ports on your vehicle? I sure dont. One sleek connector suits me just fine. By supporting any other standard other than their own, Tesla would be crapping on their own superior connector. This is just business 101.

But.. but.. but.. you've got that! You have the sleek all-in-one Tesla connector that works everywhere. You can use a Tesla UMC, a Tesla HPWC, a Tesla Supercharger and you can use J1772 stations with the supplied adapter and CHAdeMO with the optional adapter. I don't see what the problem is.

The issue is at the other end of the equation when a hotel installs an 80 amp HPWC that only the Model S can use instead of an 80 amp J1772 station that everyone, including Model S owners can use.

Again, for me with a Model S, fine. But just look at some of the comments on PlugShare from disgruntled non-Tesla EV owners when they find one of these and can't charge. I get that Tesla is providing them, and that's fine... they want to promote their own cars and standards, but it sure doesn't seem to support the idea of accelerating electric vehicle adoption "in general" and in some senses, could lead to resentment against the "perceived 1 per-centers" who can afford a Model S.

 

[GSP]

I never said that J1772 is inadequate for 80A. What I said was that every other charging connector cannot match Tesla's 135kw of power, not even close. Do you want multiple huge connectors/ports on your vehicle? I sure dont. One sleek connector suits me just fine. By supporting any other standard other than their own, Tesla would be crapping on their own superior connector, not to mention making their cars wait behind hybrids who won't be stranded if they don't charge. This is just business 101.

The hotels are not putting in Superchargers, they are putting in 80 Amp L2 EVSEs. J1772 is just as good as Tesla's proprietary connector for these stations.

What's the best plug to install on the car is another discussion, and not decided by the hotel management.

I would not stay at a hotel that offered charging only for the Model S. That is a reason for them to chose J1772 L2 stations. If Tesla offered HPWCs with a J1772 plug, they likely would get more Hotels and other businesses putting them in. That would be good for everyone.

GSP

 

[ToddRLockwood]

well sorry to be a grumpy Yorkshire man, but I don't really get the 'benefit' !
Now I can only speak for myself when I say, I'm not really in the habit of using a hotel room for the odd 'hour or two' and normally when staying at a hotel - am there for at least 8-10 hours (assuming arriving by 9pm and not leaving before 7am.
I do appreciate that I am far from an expert (including on the hours an American MS owner uses a hotel room for) - but this would still allow to total recharge of an 85kw/h battery.

*Please bear in mind that if I end up being a male prostitute to enable the funding of a MS - I reserve the right to change my opinion

Hotels are not the only locations where these destination chargers are being located. Ski areas are a perfect application, especially if you're not spending the night. Also, it's good to keep in mind that Tesla may offer a larger battery in the not-too-distant future. A 500-mile battery—which Elon Musk believes will eventually be possible—could take as long as 9-hours to charge at present charging rates.

 

[qwk]

But.. but.. but.. you've got that! You have the sleek all-in-one Tesla connector that works everywhere. You can use a Tesla UMC, a Tesla HPWC, a Tesla Supercharger and you can use J1772 stations with the supplied adapter and CHAdeMO with the optional adapter. I don't see what the problem is.

The issue is at the other end of the equation when a hotel installs an 80 amp HPWC that only the Model S can use instead of an 80 amp J1772 station that everyone, including Model S owners can use.

Again, for me with a Model S, fine. But just look at some of the comments on PlugShare from disgruntled non-Tesla EV owners when they find one of these and can't charge. I get that Tesla is providing them, and that's fine... they want to promote their own cars and standards, but it sure doesn't seem to support the idea of accelerating electric vehicle adoption "in general" and in some senses, could lead to resentment against the "perceived 1 per-centers" who can afford a Model S.

It's not Tesla's responsibility to install charging stations compatible with other manufacturers cars. The people who bought those cars can contact their manufacturer and complain.

BTW, a Model S is hardly a 1% car. That is just nonsense.

 

[TexasEV]

It's not uncommon for hotels to have conference centers, and many business meetings are held in them for, say, half a day. I'm probably at one at least once a month for meetings like this.

...there are a lot of reasons for being at a hotel other than road tripping. I see lots of Leafs, Volts, and other EVs at hotels all the time.

We're talking about two different things. If someone is going to a hotel for a conference, they're going there whether or not EV charging is available. Sure it would be nice for EV charging to be available, but you'll find a way to go there regardless. When a hotel installs EV charging it's probably to increase discretionary stays, when someone has a choice of where to stay. This is where HPWCs can increase business for the hotel and visibility for Tesla. Those stays are almost always involve a trip of at least 100 miles, and it's really unlikely a EV (and I'm not talking about Volt, I'm talking about EVs that need to charge)other than Model S and soon Model X will be looking for a hotel that far away.

 

[qwk]

The hotels are not putting in Superchargers, they are putting in 80 Amp L2 EVSEs. J1772 is just as good as Tesla's proprietary connector for these stations.

What's the best plug to install on the car is another discussion, and not decided by the hotel management.

I would not stay at a hotel that offered charging only for the Model S. That is a reason for them to chose J1772 L2 stations. If Tesla offered HPWCs with a J1772 plug, they likely would get more Hotels and other businesses putting them in. That would be good for everyone.

GSP

Does anybody else besides me here not get that the J1772 standard is directly tied to the Frankenplug? Come on guys, this isn't that hard to figure out.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

If Tesla offered HPWCs with a J1772 plug, they likely would get more Hotels and other businesses putting them in. That would be good for everyone.

GSP

This might be true were it not for the fact that Tesla is offering the HPWC's to hotels for free, and in some instances Tesla pays for the installation as well. The property owner only pays for the electricity. I don't know for certain, but I imagine that Tesla's offer is contingent upon the hotel not charging Tesla owners for the use of the HPWC, although they might be able to limit it to hotel guests.

 

[GSP]

It's not Tesla's responsibility to install charging stations compatible with other manufacturers cars. The people who bought those cars can contact their manufacturer and complain. .

They are more likely to complain to the business that installed the charging station they can not use. After all, the manufacturer of their car installed a standardized plug to enable them to use as many charging stations as possible.

What are businesses supposed to do? Install separate charging stations for Tesla S, Tesla Roadster, Chevrolets, Fords, Mercedes, Chryslers, Hyundais, BMW, VW, Volvo, Morgans, Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, Nissans, Lotus, etc? They would have a different plug for every parking space! Most of these companies make PEVs already or plan to introduce them soon.

GSP

 

[mknox]

It's not Tesla's responsibility to install charging stations compatible with other manufacturers cars. The people who bought those cars can contact their manufacturer and complain.

BTW, a Model S is hardly a 1% car. That is just nonsense.

I'm sensing that we actually agree on most of this. You are absolutely correct that it is not up to Tesla to install EVSE compatible with other people's cars. Tesla Roadster owners have called to complain. I'm also not suggesting that Tesla adopt anything other than their present connector. I'm speaking more to the destination operator who installs a Model S - only charging unit and am wondering if they're doing themselves any favors when comments on PlugShare like this show up:

I agree absolutely that Model S is not a "1%-er's" car, but popular opinion may not be on our side. There was a big editorial in Canada's national paper about how government EV incentives "for the rich" must end - - and they were even lumping Leaf and Volt owners into the "privileged few".

 

[djp]

Here is a perfect example from the first Tesla destination charger in Ontario at Muskoka Bay Club, which is already drawing the ire of other EV owners. The club is about 100 miles north of Toronto, so within range of other EVs.

This discussion isn't about the connector on the car, but the charging station. If I was in the hospitality business, I'd rather put in a station that attracts all EVs instead of just Teslas. I've heard of hotels turning down destination chargers because of this - Tesla could gain more traction and install more chargers if they offered an HPWC with J1772 connector, and avoid the "elitist" image at the same time.

(Note - cross posted with @mknox. Funny how we both thought of that same comment at the same time!)

 

[qwk]

They are more likely to complain to the business that installed the charging station they can not use. After all, the manufacturer of their car installed a standardized plug to enable them to use as many charging stations as possible.

What are businesses supposed to do? Install separate charging stations for Tesla S, Tesla Roadster, Chevrolets, Fords, Mercedes, Chryslers, Hyundais, BMW, VW, Volvo, Morgans, Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, Nissans, Lotus, etc? They would have a different plug for every parking space! Most of these companies make PEVs already or plan to introduce them soon.

GSP

Like I said before, the standard that was thought up by manufacturers who don't build EV's(except for CARB compliance reasons), SUCKS. What was Tesla supposed to do? Build cars that take so long to charge that not many people buy them? In business there is competition, and usually the best company(s) stay in business. This concept isn't followed in auto manufacturing, because the worst companies stay in business due to government intervention. Voting with your wallet in these cases seems to be the only recourse.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sensing that we actually agree on most of this. You are absolutely correct that it is not up to Tesla to install EVSE compatible with other people's cars. Tesla Roadster owners have called to complain. I'm also not suggesting that Tesla adopt anything other than their present connector. I'm speaking more to the destination operator who installs a Model S - only charging unit and am wondering if they're doing themselves any favors when comments on PlugShare like this show up:

View attachment 58334

I agree absolutely that Model S is not a "1%-er's" car, but popular opinion may not be on our side. There was a big editorial in Canada's national paper about how government EV incentives "for the rich" must end - - and they were even lumping Leaf and Volt owners into the "privileged few".

Can you point me to any other manufacturer besides Tesla that donates charging equipment? Those commenters bought obsolete cars that can't charge everywhere. That is their problem, not anybody elses.

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Here is a perfect example from the first Tesla destination charger in Ontario at Muskoka Bay Club, which is already drawing the ire of other EV owners. The club about 100 miles north of Toronto, so within range of other EVs.

View attachment 58336

This discussion isn't about the connector on the car, but the charging station. If I was in the hospitality business, I'd rather put in a station that attracts all EVs instead of just Teslas. I've heard of hotels turning down destination chargers because of this - Tesla could gain more traction and install more chargers if they offered an HPWC with J1772 connector, and avoid the "elitist" image at the same time.

(Note - cross posted with @mknox. Funny how we both thought of that same comment at the same time!)

This is like a generic MP3 buyer complaining that they cannot access iTunes. It's a silly argument. They knew the limitations of their vehicles when they bought them. They didn't support Tesla for various reasons, but now want Tesla to support their cars? Do you know how stupid this sounds?

 

[GSP]

Tesla absolutely did a great job designing the connector on their cars, and the rest of the car as well! By all means everyone should vote with their wallets for Tesla.

However, for the *L2 charging station side* (not the car side) a standard plug has many advantages. Tesla thought about this and the Model S accommodates standard charging stations very well with their slick little 80 Amp capable J1772 adapter that comes with the Model S.

GSP

 

[wycolo]

> drawing the ire of other EV owners. [djp]

Who likely will never even come close to planning an EV trip with a stay over at Samantha's Bed n Breakfast but just want to ventilate about their perceived disrespect. Their EV can't really go anywhere exciting and they resent that limitation. So kick sand on Tesla's parade.

Until someone else produces a long distance BEV this is simply a moot issue about cheap hardware that gets hung on a wall.
--

 

[qwk]

Tesla absolutely did a great job designing the connector on their cars, and the rest of the car as well! By all means everyone should vote with their wallets for Tesla.

However, for the *L2 charging station side* (not the car side) a standard plug has many advantages. Tesla thought about this and the Model S accommodates standard charging stations very well with their slick little 80 Amp capable J1772 adapter that comes with the Model S.

GSP

That's my point, the 80A J1772 has NO advantage. It cannot charge any faster than an HPWC, and the HUGE disadvantage is that it is tied to a L3 standard that is limited to about half of what Tesla offers.

 

[djp]

This is like a generic MP3 buyer complaining that they cannot access iTunes. It's a silly argument. They knew the limitations of their vehicles when they bought them. They didn't support Tesla for various reasons, but now want Tesla to support their cars? Do you know how stupid this sounds?

You're advocating a world without standards, where every EV manufacturer has their own proprietary connector. In that world, EV adoption would grind to a halt.

I agree the Tesla connector is a better design for the car, but unless all other manufacturers and standards committees adopt it (which isn't going to happen), J1772 is the better choice for an 80A L2 EVSE, and it is equivalent to an HPWC for Model S owners.

 

[qwk]

> drawing the ire of other EV owners. [djp]

Who likely will never even come close to planning an EV trip with a stay over at Samantha's Bed n Breakfast but just want to ventilate about their perceived disrespect. Their EV can't really go anywhere exciting and they resent that limitation. So kick sand on Tesla's parade.

Until someone else produces a long distance BEV this is simply a moot issue about cheap hardware that gets hung on a wall.
--

Yep, this is pretty much it. They didn't pay for the benefits, yet still want them. This is entitlement at its finest.

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You're advocating a world without standards, where every EV manufacturer has their own proprietary connector. In that world, EV adoption would grind to a halt.

I agree the Tesla connector is a better design for the car, but unless all other manufacturers and standards committees adopt it (which isn't going to happen), J1772 is the better choice for an 80A L2 EVSE, and it is equivalent to an HPWC for Model S owners.

No, I'm advocating for a usable EV. I hate to rain on your parade, but EV adoption is pathetic right now. One of the reasons is the fact that not many people besides environmental die-hards have the ambition or time to live with the compromises. Tesla pretty much fixed that problem. Standards are fine, but not when they severely cripple a product.

 

[mknox]

(Note - cross posted with @mknox. Funny how we both thought of that same comment at the same time!)

One other thing I noticed is that this site was listed on the Tesla destinations page, but it is now gone. I am pretty sure the HPWCs are still there.

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This is like a generic MP3 buyer complaining that they cannot access iTunes. It's a silly argument. They knew the limitations of their vehicles when they bought them. They didn't support Tesla for various reasons, but now want Tesla to support their cars? Do you know how stupid this sounds?

I feel like I'm starting to put too fine a point on this, but I don't think it's about what Tesla is doing. Rather, it's about the perception of an establishment only endorsing one model of car. Like it or not, J1772 and CHAdeMO are here, and the horrible "Frankenplug" is coming, and we're going to be in a multiple standards world for some time. Does it suck? Sure. Imagine if Chevrolets could only re-fuel at Chevrolet gas stations. Ridiculous, but that's where we are in the EV world right now. In a perfect world, all manufacturers will adopt the Model S connector and this discussion ends... but that is a ways off.

To say that someone purchased a car with known limitations and is looking for Tesla's support is not at all what we're talking about here.

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Who likely will never even come close to planning an EV trip with a stay over at Samantha's Bed n Breakfast but just want to ventilate about their perceived disrespect. Their EV can't really go anywhere exciting and they resent that limitation. So kick sand on Tesla's parade.

Seriously? LOTs of non-Tesla EV owners take overnight trips in their cars, or day trips beyond their car's range and need to charge and get back. And they're not blaming Tesla for anything. They are wondering why the establishment they may want to visit only "endorses" one type of EV. No one is kicking sand on Tesla's parade. They probably don't even realize how/why the HPWCs were installed, and only wonder why a more universal charger wasn't.