Yet another reason why the Dual Chargers option is worth having...

[GSP]

Well, back to the topic: As more 80 Amp EVSEs get installed, the dual charger option keeps getting more attractive. And, it does not matter to Model S owners if the destination installs an HPWC or a J1772 style EVSE, the Model S with dual chargers can use either.

Priced at $1500 when you you order your car, dual chargers are much more expensive to retrofit later ($3600). Even if you only need them once in a blue moon, you will be *really glad* you have dual chargers on those occasions.

Just look at Islandbayy, who bought a 60 kWh since expenses were tight, but ended up having dual chargers retrofitted to his car. If you might end up in his shoes (not everyone will), you can benefit from his experience and specify dual chargers when you order.

GSP

PS. Thanks Islandbayy for sharing all your Model S experiences with us.

 

[TexasEV]

I wonder why retrofitting the Model S with dual chargers costs as much as it does. At $3600, that's $2100 more than the factory installed price of $1500. Even if all $1500 was for the part and not factory labor, an extra $2100 later for labor at the service center at $175/hr the service center charges for Model S comes out to 12 hours labor. Is that really what it takes?

For a time Tesla actually discouraged ordering with dual chargers when not ordered with HPWC and bundled them together for a while to emphasize dual chargers were intended for people who install HPWC at home. As it turns out dual chargers are becoming useful for many of us who have no need for HPWC at home, 40A charging with NEMA 14-50 is fine for overnight charging at home, but we would use them at destinations.

It would be nice if Tesla dropped the price of upgrading existing cars to dual chargers to what it actually costs, even using a labor rate of $175/hr, or perhaps give an even better deal to those of us who didn't order Model S with dual chargers last year because we had no need for 100A HPWC at home.

 

[jerry33]

I wonder why retrofitting the Model S with dual chargers costs as much as it does. At $3600, that's $2100 more than the factory installed price of $1500. Even if all $1500 was for the part and not factory labor, an extra $2100 later for labor at the service center at $175/hr the service center charges for Model S comes out to 12 hours labor. Is that really what it takes?

They would rather you purchase it with the car and price the upgrade accordingly. There is also shipping and paperwork cost involved (okay, they're small comparatively, but not zero). It takes about two hours to replace a failed charger. I don't know how much other stuff they have to do for a new install rather than a replacement.

 

[TexasEV]

They would rather you purchase it with the car and price the upgrade accordingly. There is also shipping and paperwork cost involved (okay, they're small comparatively, but not zero). It takes about two hours to replace a failed charger. I don't know how much other stuff they have to do for a new install rather than a replacement.

That's true for other upgrades, but for a long time Tesla did not rather we purchase dual chargers with the car. As I posted above last year Tesla discouraged purchasing dual chargers with the car if you didn't also buy a HPWC, and for a while actually didn't even offer it except as a package with a HPWC. Now that Tesla realizes there is another reason to have dual chargers besides using it with a HPWC installed at home, I think there should be some accommodation for those who early buyers who followed Tesla's advice, and provide it for the actual hourly labor rate if not some discount from that, rather than charging 12 hours of labor. And I would gladly pay the shipping.

 

[Jaff]

Here though is where you need to think beyond the borders of the U. S.

Canada is larger in area than the U. S. , but we have 1/10th the population, hence we are a small market for Tesla...it will be a long, long time before Superchargers connect all of Canada coast to coast, and a long long time before the Super harder network is properly "filled in" adequately...you folks in the U.S. already enjoy a Supercharging network that is years away for us...this is why the dual chargers are so important to us, and, why a robust Level II charging network usable by all EV's is as well.

I did a 3,500 km trip last fall using high amp Level II charging (in my Roadster)...it was completely "doable" with Sun Country's charge network (and a little patience).

I think it is important to note, as other Canadian Tesla owners have already pointed out that we all wish that all EV manufacturers out there were using Tesla's Model S charging protocols, but the reality is that too may be years away (if ever)...without other EV manufacturers coming online with Tesla's charging protocols, there is simply no way this step can be skipped in Canada imo.

I used to think this way too, UNTIL I used the supercharger network for a 3k mile trip. After that eye opener, there is no way that ANY manufacturer will be able to sell many EV's without access to the superchargers. There is that much difference.

When, not if, Tesla's plug becomes the standard, everything else is going to need adapters. It's better just to skip this step.

- - - Updated - - -

It is the latter Texas...Sun Country is rolling out their charge stations at Best Western Hotels in the U. S. as well...

I think all the arguments pro and con regarding hotels partnering with Tesla to install HPWC have already been made, several times over, so no point repeating ourselves.
It's interesting that much of the opposition seems to be from Canadians, certainly out of proportion to their relative numbers as Tesla owners or forum participants. I wonder if this is a cultural difference, or is it somehow related to the fact that most of the Sun Country high amp level 2's at hotels are in Canada?

- - - Updated - - -

No one is knocking Tesla for their good deeds here SFO...it is just that putting in an EV charging station that all EV's can use makes more sense from the hotel owner's business perspective.

And it would be well within your rights (I assume even in Canada) to put in whatever charging stations you want on your hotel property, so great if you want to put in both. But right now, I'm guessing that most hotels might only want or need to put in one station, and if I were the hotel owner, and Tesla was willing to give me a deal on a HPWC, that's the one I would choose. Personally, if I have a choice all things being equal, between a hotel that has a HPWC and one with a Level II charger, I would opt for the hotel with the HPWC. And I assume that most Tesla owners would do the same, and hotel owners who are in areas where road tripping is feasible for Teslas but not for Leafs would want to extend this benefit to attract more Tesla owners. If the market later shifts to some other cars with another plug, or another hotel owner adopts for Level II and miraculously starts winning more customers, than hotel owners can always add another station with the plug of choice. That ain't where we are now or anytime in the foreseeable future. And with all due respect to those relatively small number of Roadster owners who actually do road trip, I would not be pleased with Tesla taking its valuable resources and subsidizing Level II chargers for other cars to use instead of rolling out more HPWCs.

Reading this thread and all of the knocks on Tesla and hotels for adding more HPWCs and not adding Level II chargers reminds me of the saying, "no good deed goes unpunished."

 

[mknox]

Since I probably paid $10,000 as part of my Tesla's purchase price towards the Tesla charging system, I'd feel angry. Tesla may have opened up their patents, but they haven't said we're giving away electricity to all comers. You've got to set your boundaries -- Tesla still needs to make a profit to stay in the game.

Conversely then, should Model S owners abandon their J1772 adapters and leave those stations for the Leaf and Volt crowd? Why would publicly accessible HPWCs be only for us while J1772 stations are available for all?

 

[SFOTurtle]

No one is knocking Tesla for their good deeds here SFO...it is just that putting in an EV charging station that all EV's can use makes more sense from the hotel owner's business perspective.

I disagree with your last assertion. It may be the case for some hotels, but clearly not all. And any hotel owner who thinks that putting in a Level II makes more sense than an HPWC is free (I assume even in Canada) to do so. It's no secret that the HPWC is only for Tesla's Model S, but I have seen plenty of hotels and at least a couple of wineries in CA that installed HPWCs and only HPWCs. But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.

 

[Larry Chanin]

If Tesla's Destination Charging network becomes robust enough, it might give other car manufacturers a reason to adopt Tesla's charging standards. I believe we will see this begin to happen when other car companies introduce 200+mile PEVs like the Model III. The level 2 standard makes sense for the limited range EV's now using them, but down the road those chargers will be wholly inadequate.

Hi Todd,

I think it is your point that many here are missing.

If Tesla is successful in building the Gigafactory and producing hundreds of thousands of Model IIIs a year, year after year, the Tesla charging connector will become the defacto standard. Its no secret that Tesla relaxed its patents enforcement to facilitate this eventual industry switch.

As was pointed out it is not Elon's strategy to adopt other car manufacturers' inferior charging standard, but rather to induce them to switch to Tesla's.

With this longer range strategy as background, it is logical that the Tesla Destination Charging Program starts with providing donated or discounted Tesla High Power Wall Connectors. It supports the goal of promoting the Tesla standard and it is half the cost of a comparable 80 amp J1772 charging station. However, Tesla project management recognizes that there are other EVs on the roads and it is their practice to recommend to host locations to install "universal" charging stations along with the Tesla HPWCs. It is really the host location's call and Tesla should not be criticized if the location elects to only install HPWCs.

As I see Elon's overarching strategy is to push a reluctant automotive industry to produce practical EVs by continuing to build compelling Teslas that take marketshare from conventional gasoline vehicles. Its a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach. Elon's strategy is NOT to subsidize other inferior designs, whether it be cars or charging infracture. As you suggest, Elon's objective will be achieved when others start producing legitimate long range EVs. When that happens those manufacturers would be very unwise not to switch to Tesla's charging standard, which incorporates a high performance port capable of both Level 2 and Level 3 charging.

In the meantime it would be counter to Tesla's long range strategy and well being to promote other standards over its own.

Larry

 

[andrewket]

I wonder why retrofitting the Model S with dual chargers costs as much as it does. At $3600, that's $2100 more than the factory installed price of $1500. Even if all $1500 was for the part and not factory labor, an extra $2100 later for labor at the service center at $175/hr the service center charges for Model S comes out to 12 hours labor. Is that really what it takes?

For a time Tesla actually discouraged ordering with dual chargers when not ordered with HPWC and bundled them together for a while to emphasize dual chargers were intended for people who install HPWC at home. As it turns out dual chargers are becoming useful for many of us who have no need for HPWC at home, 40A charging with NEMA 14-50 is fine for overnight charging at home, but we would use them at destinations.

It would be nice if Tesla dropped the price of upgrading existing cars to dual chargers to what it actually costs, even using a labor rate of $175/hr, or perhaps give an even better deal to those of us who didn't order Model S with dual chargers last year because we had no need for 100A HPWC at home.

Tesla wasn't discouraging people from buying dual chargers. They were trying to minimize the confusion between supercharging and high-powered charging. Lots of people ordered dual chargers thinking they were getting supercharging.

 

[Larry Chanin]

That's true for other upgrades, but for a long time Tesla did not rather we purchase dual chargers with the car. As I posted above last year Tesla discouraged purchasing dual chargers with the car if you didn't also buy a HPWC, and for a while actually didn't even offer it except as a package with a HPWC. Now that Tesla realizes there is another reason to have dual chargers besides using it with a HPWC installed at home, I think there should be some accommodation for those who early buyers who followed Tesla's advice, and provide it for the actual hourly labor rate if not some discount from that, rather than charging 12 hours of labor. And I would gladly pay the shipping.

Agreed. I think Tesla's long term charging strategy was undefined when they bundled the dual on-board chargers with an HPWC. Likewise the cost of retrofitting a second on-board charger is somewhat at odds with promoting an HPWC network at key destinations. It wouldn't surprise me to see a downward adjustment in the pricing.

Larry

 

[scaesare]

I agree with the posts supporting the general idea that Tesla is pushing the status quo on several fronts when it comes to charging:

-Car range/pack size (85kWh)
-Car charger capability (20kW)
-L2 charger parterership (free/discounted/aggressive)
-DC fast charging (135kW, aggressive rollout, free for life, solar backed, parternering with business locations)
-Connector/port design (combined L2/L3, sleek, intelligent)

Thus far, Tesla has adopted standards where it makes sense, discounted them when it doesn't (often with an amusing snide remark), moved forward with their own designs when necessary, and generally pushed faster and harder than everybody else. Along the way they've done things like offer to work freely with patent designs, etc...

So while Tesla is getting stuff done, other companies tend to look like thy are standing around.

Is one of Tesla's goals to advance the adoption of EV's in general? Yes.

But if they believe they can better serve that interest by pushing forward and at the same time advance their own interests to ensure their future viability (i.e. eliminate silly two-connector/unwieldy) car desgins... then more power to them (pun intended).

To me, arguing that Tesla shouldn't be offering their top-pf the line L2 charging station to hotels, but instead go to the effort and expense of building/licensing/providing a different product to fill the voids other companies have left is a nice uptoian dream, but not terribly rooted in the real world of driving a successful business.

Nothing's prevented Nissan, Toyota, Chevy, etc... from doing any of this... but they didn't.

 

[SFOTurtle]

No one is knocking Tesla for their good deeds here SFO...it is just that putting in an EV charging station that all EV's can use makes more sense from the hotel owner's business perspective.

[Edit: Apologies for the duplicate post. I re-posted because it appeared my post from last night didn't have the context from the quote to which I was responding, but now it seems to have it fine.] I disagree with your last assertion. It may be the case for some hotels, but clearly not all. And any hotel owner who thinks that putting in a Level II makes more sense than an HPWC is free (I assume even in Canada) to do so. It's no secret that the HPWC is only for Tesla's Model S, but I have seen plenty of hotels and at least a couple of wineries in CA that installed HPWCs and only HPWCs. But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.

 

[mknox]

But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.

Of course not, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

 

[TexasEV]

Tesla wasn't discouraging people buying dual chargers. They were trying to minimize the confusion between supercharging and high-powered charging. Lots of people ordered dual chargers thinking they were getting supercharging.

The first part of your statement is just not true. I understand there was confusion and Tesla thought pairing HPWC with dual chargers would eliminate that confusion, but the fact remains that Tesla emphasized the dual chargers were to charge with HPWC at home. Even before the short-lived bundling of HPWC and dual chargers, people who didn't need 80A charging at home were told there is no reason to order the car with dual chargers if you're not getting HPWC. I'm one of them.

I'm not blaming anyone, this was before Tesla thought of a destination charging program, and when in most of the U.S. the J1772s were all 30A. It's just that dual chargers have turned out to be more useful than they were thought to be when they were intended to be paired with a HPWC installed at home. Given these facts, and the upgrade price calculates to 12 hours of service center labor above the price of the factory installed option, I think it would be reasonable for Tesla to provide a more reasonable upgrade price if the installation doesn't actually take 12 hours of work.

 

[Larry Chanin]

But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.

Of course not, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Perhaps you didn't mean to imply it, but your initial response could easily be interpreted that you were suggesting that Tesla promote other chargers rather than their own.

As much as I applaud Tesla and these establishments for installing HPWCs, I do worry that it makes Tesla vehicles even more "elitist". Why not install 100 amp Clipper Creek / Sun Country units that will deliver exactly the same rate of charge to a Tesla with dual chargers, but also allow pretty much every other EV on the continent to plug in as well?

Larry

 

[jerry33]

That's true for other upgrades, but for a long time Tesla did not rather we purchase dual chargers with the car. As I posted above last year Tesla discouraged purchasing dual chargers with the car if you didn't also buy a HPWC, and for a while actually didn't even offer it except as a package with a HPWC. Now that Tesla realizes there is another reason to have dual chargers besides using it with a HPWC installed at home, I think there should be some accommodation for those who early buyers who followed Tesla's advice, and provide it for the actual hourly labor rate if not some discount from that, rather than charging 12 hours of labor. And I would gladly pay the shipping.

Agreed, if that's what they did--I had thought it was just a few store employees who discouraged it, not Tesla as a company. I know they sold it as a package for awhile, but that didn't last very long. I never heard what their thinking was.

I purchased the twin chargers because of all the original Leaf owners who didn't get the fast charge port because there weren't any in the area when they purchased. Every one of them now regrets it and a few have traded in their car to get one with both ports.

 

[bollar]

It seems that dual chargers still aren't pushed at stores I visit. I'm almost always greeted with a "really? wow! why?" from the rep when I say I have them.

 

[Canuck]

I was strongly encouraged by Tesla to buy dual chargers when I got my car (and this was before I bought a HPWC) but that's probably because around here we have a lot of Sun Country 70 amp EVSE's.

 

[russman]

I was told to pass on HPWC but to get the dual chargers.

 

[dsm363]

Tesla Roadster, which is shut out of Tesla's destination charging program. More importantly, all EVs (including Model S) can charge at high amp J1772 stations, but only Model S can charge at an HPWC. The open standard is a better choice for public destinations.



To quote Elon..



Building an extensive high amp L2 charging network using a proprietary connector instead of an industry standard doesn't help move the world towards this goal. The net result will be fragmented charge networks, confused consumers, and slower EV adoption until the standards wars shake out.

You have to balance that with owners of a $80,000+ car being happy with their purchase. If they are they are more likely to drive it around and show other people how amazing the car is and his easy it is to travel with. Hotels are perfectly able to buy J1772 stations themselves and Nissan and Ford can donate them too. Having one 80A J1772 station Ickes by a Pip of Volt all night does a traveling EV little good.